Working_Setters Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 (edited) I have heard this sooo many times but with my girls and the 8 or so fosters I have had I have not had a problem getting their attention in the off leash park (fully fenced of coarse) with the aid of yet again the trusty little treat bag My girls can be on the other side of the park and yes they won't even look up if I call but one jiggle of the treat bag and they nearly break the land speed record to return Congrats on your training Freckles. I'd be interested to know how well your treat bag would work if you hounds were running fresh hare/rabbit scent. I hunted with a pack of 20 beagles once/twice a week for 4 years, and I can tell you there wasn't a treat bag on earth that could have pulled those hounds off fresh scent Course these were huntin' hounds doing the work they were breed for, like I say I expect your average pet is quite a bit different. Using a check chain in combination with treats and other positives also gets my Edited January 23, 2007 by Working_Setters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 (edited) Shan2001: Yes a check chain is cruel if it is used incorrectly. If the club wants u to have a check chain they had better b showing everyone how to use them correctly. I have always used a check chain on all my dogs but would never recommend them to someone unless they are shown how to use them and put them on correctly. This could ..... and should apply as a blanket statement to whichever and whatever piece of training aid/equipment is being used at the time, be it check-chain, head-collar, etc. etc. Beaglenewb: I am trying to find a club close to me that offers the more positive reinforcement Because the school preferences the use of check-chains doesn't mean they don't encourage the use of positive reinforcement. Have you spoken with them about this? Many people instantly think anyone/any school that employs the use of check-chains (or similar) train using majority "negative" association. In many cases this is simply not a correct assumption. In some cases, I will train with a check-chain (preference to prong not being an option here in Victoria). In some of those cases and in some sessions, I don't even apply it. But it is there should I need it. In other cases - especially where I am not the one handling the dog - I may not initially recommend it. This might be because of the dog's issues/temperament at the time and/or the new handler's lack of handling skill/co-ordination. Freckles: Personally I haven't had to use a correction collar on my beagles. I was shown a trick for keeping their nose off the ground and then used food as an attention getter to teach well mannered walking. my girls know when the treats are in the bag they can have a wonder but if I have a treat in my hand they must pay attention and heal. Hi Freckles ...... whatever works for you and whatever you're happy with, I guess. But I have to say that it sounds like "bribing" to me. What happens if one day you forget/run out of treats .... does this mean your dogs think "great, I don't have to (or, in my mind, they'd be thinking "there's no reason to") pay attention to my handler????? I would be interested to know what "trick" you use to keep your dog's noses of the ground. I've worked with a number of Beagles. Each were different and each were obsessed with putting nose to ground in varying degrees. Each had individual preferences for reward. I worked differently with each; modified each exercise as needed to show the dogs what I was after and rewarded in different ways, according to what worked best for the dog at the time. Can't say I had a particular "trick" though. Beaglenewb ....... does the club prescribe to the use of a Check-chain immediately (ie from pups onwards)? When in the "teaching phase" I work to avoid the giving of corrections, but simultaneously, work to set the dog up so it can't help but "win". Edited January 23, 2007 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy beagle lady Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Its always good to hear another beagle person usuing tricks Infact i find their minds to be quite amazing, clever creatures that they are! We tried our older boy charlie with every method possible, his prey drive is so high that the only one that works for him and us is the correction collar, we put the little guy on it too. In the early days at the park we used to look like we were being taken sledding as charlie lunged and pulled to scents! Beaglenewb: the main thing here is that you understand the breed and what works for you/him; This includes foods, training, sleeping, playing etc. There are many experienced beagle people on this forum that would be more than happy to help you should you need to know how to trick and distract those clever, evil and busy minds! beaglenewb I have PMed you Beagles are NOT as hard to train as people say they are, you just need to understand the breed and learn how to trick their active minds! Do you know how many times I have said this myself CBL Actually I just said it in the pm to beaglenewb as well Believe me I'm not against the use of correction chains, I just haven't had to use one on the beagles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 (edited) Working Setters I would never have a chance even with my treat bag of getting them off a prey scent, but in the dog park they are fine. I think having so many fosters come and go helps them loose interest in other dogs smells too Mind you I would love to see a large hunting pack of beagles in true hunting mode. Hi Freckles ...... whatever works for you and whatever you're happy with, I guess. But I have to say that it sounds like "bribing" to me. What happens if one day you forget/run out of treats .... does this mean your dogs think "great, I don't have to (or, in my mind, they'd be thinking "there's no reason to") pay attention to my handler?????I would be interested to know what "trick" you use to keep your dog's noses of the ground. I have over time reduced the treats and IF I forgot my treats on a walk, I can simply pick up a stone or anything as long as the dogs think I have something they are good. Because so many trainers have different opinions on what is right and what is wrong I won't go into what I was taught, but I will say I started walks with a scent distracter that again over time was phased out as the desired behaviour became constant. I have not told beaglenewb to use this method but it is there if they feel comfortable with it. Edited January 23, 2007 by Freckles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Mind you I would love to see a large hunting pack of beagles in true hunting mode. I'll see if I can dig out some pics and scan them for you. I was in Virginia, USA, the countryside was beautiful and at times spectacular. The guys I went with had access to some really exclusive ($10,000,000) properties. Watching the hounds work in these conditions was awesome, just had to be constantly aware the hound stayed on rabbit (hare) scent, as if when they got onto deer or bear, all hell would break loose Rabbit hunting with hounds is HUGE in the USA, if you ever get the chance I can HIGHLY recommend it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy beagle lady Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Freckles: You have made my day!!! The ammount of times we have used a stone/rock/twig to get their attention is amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaglenewb Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 Yeah they are quite the little mischevious type...up for the challenge. PLUS who could not forgive those pleading eyes once in a while !! LOL I'll have a look around, but I am definatly enrolling him in the puppy preschool at RSPCA. Which is 100% indoors. !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 thanks Working setters, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to see a pack at work CBL you are welcome. Sorry beaglenewb I will step back from your thread now, so sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaglenewb Posted January 23, 2007 Author Share Posted January 23, 2007 Freckles Stay Stay ...the more the merrier ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freckles Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Oh Ok but I will try and not take over again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Hi Beaglenewb! i to have a 'hard to train, dominant' breed that has been a breeze to train! you said in the original post they want you to use a correction collar - does it actually say a check chain? there are also martingales which generally make life easier for the person training. (sort of a half check collar) the club i go to - actively encourages their use and is happy for you to use anything else correction or otherwise providing you can demonstrate the dog responds to it and you have control. if your dog is perfectly behaved on a flat collar thats fine. i have taken by girl on a prong (altho not attached to the lead) and there was no comments. But if you visit some classes i think you will quickly understand why some clubs suggest you come prepared with something like a correction collar. Often there are older untrained pound dogs that are completely out of control that turn up on a flat collar dragging the owner not far behind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 FrecklesStay Stay .... Never give a command more than once, the second time should be accompanied by a correction IMO. Sorry couldn't help myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaglenewb Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ohhh Ok I contacted Knox and they told me correction collars are recommended but if you feel strongly against them then you don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Check if Knox allows you to take food on premisis for training if you are still interested to go there. I don't mind if people choose not to use food, but I don't like it when clubs tell you you CANT use it.... and that goes for every method etc.... shows they are narrow minded IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaglenewb Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 Will do so leopup Southern Obedience School looks pretty good to. Fully fenced ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I don't mind if people choose not to use food, but I don't like it when clubs tell you you CANT use it.... and that goes for every method etc.... shows they are narrow minded IMO. Agreed. Love your new avatar LP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaglenewb Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ohhh I think we would need food. Beagle are food lovers ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsD Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I don't mind if people choose not to use food, but I don't like it when clubs tell you you CANT use it.... and that goes for every method etc.... shows they are narrow minded IMO. I agree with this - I would never go to a club which said I had to use or wasn't allowed to use a specific method of training or piece of equipment. IMO, every dog is different & different methods work best on different dogs & even for different exercises, it's up to the owner with help from the instructor to work out what those methods are. One method does not fit all - that goes for positive as well as negative as far as I am concerned . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Will do so leopupSouthern Obedience School looks pretty good to. Fully fenced ! Southern is great - went there last year for an obed trial - looks very professional and designed for dogs - not just a soccer ground Haven/ Mrs D - yep. Exactly my thoughts. we can't put all dogs into one basket and say that they can ALL be trained by this method. Not possible. a purely positive trainer can do just as much 'damage' to their training as a pure 'compulsion' trainer. Haven - thanx - the two of them get along too well!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Hi Beaglenewb Just remember that whatever dog obedience club, or training method that you agree with, that dog obedience clubs are a great economical way to trian your dog, but the instructors are volunteers who thankfully donate their time for free, but have varying degrees of experience, and some can be "one trick ponys". Not to put them down in general (I'm one), but just be aware to use what you agree with, and be open minded as you can always learn something from everybody. Most clubs are also good social places. If you are really interested in dog sports like obedience, agility, tracking etc, my advice is to use as much reading material as you can handle, in order to learn as much about all training techniques as possible. A great book to start with that will cover great check chain (and some positive) techniques, is Beyond Basic Dog Training (Diane L Bauman). It also covers trial training in detail. Oldie but a goodie, and available from A&Robertson by ordering, or VCA library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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