Dominance

[Paula-]

Just another word about wire muzzles, I've seen greys get them off (hook a claw in the bit that goes behind their ears and draw it off over their head) and I've had a grey try to take it off by pawing the top of the wire and dragging it down far enough that his teeth hooked over the top. This cut his gums and it was extremely hard to get off him. There may be nothing in the house for the muzzle to get hooked on, but the grey could still get hurt.

[FANG]

Greytmate, thanks so much for talking to me yesterday - I really appreciate it.

Yes, I don't think this dog's prey drive is very strong. When we go for walks she only shows a fairly mild interest in birds for example, and only when they're close by. Perhaps she wasn't a very good race dog.

Once I have a name for her I am going to start TOT in addition to NILIF.

I took her to the vet today and now my vet bills thus far have totalled $340 I get her blood results tomorrow, so I'm hoping to find out what's wrong with her. I haven't been able to get in contact with the GAP people yet. Hopefully they'll call me back soon.

[greying-fast]

Can I add that getting a rescue greyhound often has 'hiccups' for a while, simply because the dogs are still learning what it is to be a pet instead of a racer. Their condition can also be less than ideal as they are 'conditioned' to race (to my untrained eye, can look semi-starved), often have never even been washed while in training, and I have my doubts about the diet they've been fed (even though you would think giving them the best nutrition would give them the best chance at racing) so their coats can be quite poor. So it takes time to build a relationship with these dogs (who are so gorgeous) and there will be settling in issues. Hang in there, a bit more time and TLC is probably needed, but I know its nerve racking.

And about greyhounds and speed - its not just speed over a distance but their lightening quick reflexes. From a 'standing start' they can immediately take anything within their reach (including heightwise standing on 2 back legs - which is very high). This is not to suggest that your grey will do that with your cat, its just a comment on the earlier post about the speed of greyhounds and cats over distance.

[FANG]

Thank you for your encouragement! I can tell she's good natured but is just having a bit of trouble understanding what being a pet is all about. When I was preparing her a meal yesterday, she was very excited and sat down momentarily without me even asking her to. That was a very good sign, I think, because I've been having trouble with her being very disobedient and refusing to sit before I let her eat.

This dog doesn't appear to have very good reflexes - she's always banging her head because she puts it in the wrong place at the wrong time. She's very clumsy. I've seen her jump with all four legs in the air a couple of times - like you said she becomes pretty tall!

Thanks again

[Paula-]

The fact that she's not sitting isn't that she's being disobedient - greys often find it a difficult position and also she's finding it all very new, a grey can 'shut down' if they're feeling nervous. I've also heard that they're discouraged from sitting in training (eg a grey sitting down in the box will get left behind when the race starts ). If you want to teach her, you'll need to take it very slow and not force her. I took one fella to obedience classes and after 8 weeks of being very patient and consistent, he could go into a drop and then up into a very shaky sit.

Personally I don't teach our fosters to sit, instead I teach them something else in place of it, for example 'touch' - getting them to move forward and nose your hand. Other options would be a 'drop/down' or a 'stand, stay' for dinner.

:p

[greying-fast]

Other options would be a 'drop/down' or a 'stand, stay' for dinner.

:rolleyes:

Stand, stay would be good for mine - at least they'd get half of it right!

But Paula is right about them often being discouraged (even punished) for sitting in the boxes - and with those bunched up thigh muscles it certainly doesn't look comfortable. The only one of mine that is comfortable sitting is the one who was never trained for racing.

[FANG]

Ohhhhh I didn't know that!!! No wonder she doesn't like it!

[Greytmate]

But Paula is right about them often being discouraged (even punished) for sitting in the boxes

Training a dog to come out of the boxes is all about encouraging the dog to come out quickly (positive reinforcement). It is not about discouraging or punishing a dog at all.

[eclecticgirl]

Hi Fang, thank you for giving this grey another chance....

I am going to add my 2 cents worth here.

A lot of these greys have had no contact with the outside world at all, apart from being taken to the track etc. So if you put yourself in their shoes and think about what they feel when they are thrust into the outside world, you will realise what they must feel. Some are very confident and just fit into everyday life, some are absolutely terrified and can take while to adjust. The tv, loud noises, everything that we take for granted can frighten them. I didnt even realise that myself until recently.

Also a lot of greys have not had a normal puppyhood, so when they come out of racing even though they might be 2 or 3 years old they seem to go through a type of delayed puppyhood. What we would normally expect from a dog of that age to be over, chewing, sillyness etc they just begin to go through.

Greyhounds are beautiful gentle intelligent creatures that are very sensitive and yours will reward you with many years of love and loyalty, my boy lived to the grand old age of 16 and I am so grateful that I had this time with him. He actually saved our lives once when we had a fire in our house, the house was full of smoke and for some reason none of us woke up, he came to the bedroom and started jumping on me....

I could sit here all night and tell you stories about him, but I guess what I am saying is that if you invest the time and patience into your grey you will be rewarded 10 fold.

[greying-fast]

But Paula is right about them often being discouraged (even punished) for sitting in the boxes

Training a dog to come out of the boxes is all about encouraging the dog to come out quickly (positive reinforcement). It is not about discouraging or punishing a dog at all.

Agree entirely that that's what the good trainers do, but I've heard from vets and a trainer involved in the industry that sadly some trainers aren't so enlightened.

[Greytmate]

But Paula is right about them often being discouraged (even punished) for sitting in the boxes

Training a dog to come out of the boxes is all about encouraging the dog to come out quickly (positive reinforcement). It is not about discouraging or punishing a dog at all.

Agree entirely that that's what the good trainers do, but I've heard from vets and a trainer involved in the industry that sadly some trainers aren't so enlightened.

The majority of people that are involved with the box training of greyhounds make it a purely positive experience for the dog. Just because 'a trainer' tells you something does not mean that it happens 'often'. Most greyhounds are sent to a breaking-in establishment to learn box manners, where they are taught by professionals using positive reinforcement to be ready for the boxes to open. A dog has no chance of a winning a race unless it is fully in drive. You would have a hard time finding a trainer that would be willing to give the dog any type of discipline or negative experience in the boxes. It's not about being enlightened, I'm taking about standard practice.

Their condition can also be less than ideal as they are 'conditioned' to race (to my untrained eye, can look semi-starved), often have never even been washed while in training, and I have my doubts about the diet they've been fed (even though you would think giving them the best nutrition would give them the best chance at racing) so their coats can be quite poor.

Greyhounds are always washed down after every single race or trial.

What diet do you think that racing greyhounds are given? What diet do you think that greyhounds are given when in rearing or pre-racing?

I think you need to educate yourself more about the care and treatment of the majority of racing greyhounds before you make such negative comments. Go along to some races and see for yourself how the dogs come out of the boxes and the condition the greyhounds are in.

[greying-fast]

Sorry, I'm not interested the greyhound racing industry, I'm only interested in rescue greyhounds (and the thousands that aren't rescued) and the setting-in problems rescue greyhounds can have.

Maybe the mainstream industry is all you say it is, but there are plenty of back-yarders, thousands of dogs and therefore statistically 'good' chances that best practise isn't universally followed - in fact Fang says 'Apparently the trainer who had her before she was at the RSPCA is going to lose his license because he was not very nice to her.'

Rescue greyhounds don't just come into the mainstream GAP programs from the best breeders and trainers, they can be dumped into pounds and shelters pre- or post - a racing career (many never even make it onto the racetrack). Ask some other people involved in greyhound rescue as to whether the dogs they've saved are universally well-fed and well-washed. I saw and transported several pre-racers recently (8 greyhounds thread) that had quite clearly never been washed (the filth on my clothes and car bore witness). The condition of their teeth, and also the teeth of all my previous adopted greyhounds also indicates that greys are usually given a soft diet - fine that they will be supplemented for calcium, but not being given bones is not good practise in feeding dogs, not only for their teeth but also their emotional well-being.

You want to promote the industry that's fine, but Fang was seeking insight into why her rescue greyhound could be reluctant to sit and why her coat was in poor condition - the suggestions are there, whether it fits with the industry is irrelevant, its whether it fits with rescue greyhounds (and not just the lucky few who make it into the racing industry sponsored programs).

[FANG]

eclecticgirl, thanks for sharing! Luckily my dog is not afraid of household noises and doesn't mind the vacuum cleaner. I think she has a very good temperament actually and I can see that she is well suited to being in the adoption program. I'm sure given some time she'll settle in. I think it's also very helpful that I can come here and get lots of advice from you all!

[Greytmate]

Greying-fast, none of the points that you have tried to make have any relevance to this topic.

I saw your posts as nothing more than having an uninformed dig at greyhound racing. I don't use this forum to promote greyhound racing, but I will defend it when I see unfair generalisations being made by people who know very little about it and who wish to know very little about it.

Many more greyhounds are rehomed by the industry than are taken in by rescue groups, and many greyhounds never need rescue.

Would you make such sweeping generalisations about pet dog owners by the condition that pound dogs are in?

Just because a dog needs washing when you see it does not mean that greyhounds are often never washed. We are in the midst of a drought at the moment, and I would not expect people to waste tank water on frequent dog washing, when the dog is probably living in a dusty dry area, and would be dirty again five minutes later.

It seems like you are basing your opinions on an entire industry on your own experiences with the dogs from one single trainer.

And tell me exactly, how is a dog's emotional well-being affected by it not being given bones? How many greyhounds do you know that have problems with their emotional well-being?

What would you know about back-yarders? How many greyhound properties have you visited? How do you know what greyhounds are fed?

If you are interested in helping people settle in their greyhound, perhaps you could offer practical advice about this (if you actually have any to give), instead of the quite nasty denigration of a large group of people that you know so little about.

Edited January 27, 2007 by Greytmate

[Greytmate]

eclecticgirl, thanks for sharing! Luckily my dog is not afraid of household noises and doesn't mind the vacuum cleaner. I think she has a very good temperament actually and I can see that she is well suited to being in the adoption program. I'm sure given some time she'll settle in. I think it's also very helpful that I can come here and get lots of advice from you all!

I think she will do well with you Fang, you sound very caring, and in no time at all she will be settled in. Eclectic girl was spot on with her post.

[greying-fast]

Thank you for the lesson, I will ensure I never again learn anything from the vets who treat my dogs (and who have practised in the racing industry), nor from the behavioural trainer who was sent out by GAPVic when I adopted from them several years ago, nor from reading reports on the industry, nor from the threads in the rescue section. I will therefore not waste any more of your time with my ill-informed comments - except to state that perhaps one reason why many more greyhounds are rehomed by industry could be that the industry should have some responsibility for these dogs (just as they have had the revenue from them)? And the many greyhounds that never need rescue, does that include the very significant numbers that make their final trip to the vet simply because they're not fast enough? Sorry, no answer is necessary as I am obviously too ignorant to learn.

... Many more greyhounds are rehomed by the industry than are taken in by rescue groups, and many greyhounds never need rescue.