Refusing To Drop

[shekhina]

Daegon is a stubborn dog and is refusing to drop on my first command. If I growl it at him he will drop, slooowly. I think this has become a habit for him and I'd really like to get him out of it. How can I do that?

He doesn't care for toys/food etc. so not rewarding him for not dropping the first time isn't helping at all

[rakaaz]

Well Shek, looking at your new piccies, I'd say he figures he looks so good he needs to keep standing to show himself off better!

[shekhina]

Well Shek, looking at your new piccies, I'd say he figures he looks so good he needs to keep standing to show himself off better!

That doesn't help me in the obedience ring though does it? And he sure as hell wont stand like that in the show ring

[2tollers]

He's not sore somewhere is he?

[shekhina]

He's not sore somewhere is he?

No, not that I can tell. He will quite happily drop when he wants to lay down so I'm pretty sure it's a training thing and not a physical thing

[Vickie]

Daegon is a stubborn dog and is refusing to drop on my first command. If I growl it at him he will drop, slooowly. I think this has become a habit for him and I'd really like to get him out of it. How can I do that?

He doesn't care for toys/food etc. so not rewarding him for not dropping the first time isn't helping at all

He doesn't care for food/toys? What do you use to reward him?

[shekhina]

Daegon is a stubborn dog and is refusing to drop on my first command. If I growl it at him he will drop, slooowly. I think this has become a habit for him and I'd really like to get him out of it. How can I do that?

He doesn't care for toys/food etc. so not rewarding him for not dropping the first time isn't helping at all

He doesn't care for food/toys? What do you use to reward him?

Praise. Daegon is a very difficult dog to get motivated, some days he has energy and wants to work and other days he doesn't care about anything. I have had a lot of issues getting him to eat and he'll only really work for toys if Kovu is threatening to win the toy first.

Most frustrating and I really don't know what to do.

[Working_Setters]

Praise. Daegon is a very difficult dog to get motivated, some days he has energy and wants to work and other days he doesn't care about anything. I have had a lot of issues getting him to eat and he'll only really work for toys if Kovu is threatening to win the toy first.

Can you use this jealously more to your advantage. I frequently leave several dogs in the back of the ute and have them watch me work with and praise another dog. Really fires up even the reluctant performers, they are falling over themselves to be the next dog to have a turn and then they try so hard to please you. Jealousy is one of the most powerful motivation tools IMO, and a big advantage to having a pack rather than one dog

[Vickie]

Praise. Daegon is a very difficult dog to get motivated, some days he has energy and wants to work and other days he doesn't care about anything. I have had a lot of issues getting him to eat and he'll only really work for toys if Kovu is threatening to win the toy first.

Most frustrating and I really don't know what to do.

If it were me I would forget the drop for a while & teach him to learn to take rewards. I think training something using natural instinct can be done without external motivators but would question how far you will get doing something that doesn't use/require instinct. Right now you are possibly establishing a pattern for him of him choosing whether or not he does what you ask. I would not let this continue as it is ultimately what you DO NOT want.

I agree with WS about dogs getting keener when they have to wait but think there has to be that drive in them in the first place for this to be effective.

JMO.

There are lot's of threads in training about teaching your dog to play & work for food...maybe have a look.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Vickie

[shekhina]

Thanks guys.

Daegon definitely has the drive because I've seen it switch on...and when it's on it's very, very high. The only triggers I've seen to having it turned on is the jealousy, sheep and horses

If I could find a way to get that drive with just me I'd be fine, Daegon is an excellent worker when he's switched on.

[leopuppy04]

I agree with both WS and Vickie. I'd work on the dog wanting to spend time with you and this way, getting him to watch you work other dogs etc. It always fires them up a little. My younger dog didn't really know how to 'play' with humans when she came to our place (ie: retrieve toys, tug etc). So rather than training the heavy stuff with her i've just been working on getting her to interact with toys etc. It's coming along really well although she's only just starting to get the hang of 'retrieving' so i'll only let her get it once or twice a time - always end with her wanting more etc. Usually i'll also do it after she has been watching my other dog go mad for his toys. For food I had to teach her to lure etc, now am teaching her to catch. Perhaps feed him his dinner by hand?

The only other thing I can think of is that if you are using praise, if he does it go nuts, if he doesn't walk away and don't interact again for a few secs. Methinks he is waiting for the growl and then seeing it as a 'NOW I must drop'.... I think you already knew that though

[shekhina]

Methinks he is waiting for the growl and then seeing it as a 'NOW I must drop'.... I think you already knew that though

Yes absolutely! I was told to growl it at him at my obedience club because he just refuses. I am doing prey drive training with Kovu, so it will be easy to tie Daegon up in an area he can see Kovu working, hopefully this will make him want to work for me.

Kovu is so simple, I only have to say "where's the toy?" and he switches into drive. When I'm 'finished' with Kovu's drive training I think I'll start with Daegon, who know, it might be what he needs.

Vickie, what do you mean about training Daegon to take rewards?

[Ons]

that was interesting about Working Setters teaching dogs in front of other dogs. Couldn't get Onslow to understand concept of drop until I put my other dog in front of him, she knows how to drop and did so on command (graduate of puppy school :-) ) , Onsy then did it straight away.

Will Daegon not drop if make him sit, then particularly tasty treat next to his chest then lower it to the ground. Worked for Onsy but if Daegon won't take treats mightn't work. good luck anyway! My friend suggested having the treat right at the chest area then lowering and it really does work.

[leopuppy04]

LOL - it's even better when I'm training my younger dog and I tell her to do something. I look behind me and Leo is doing whatever I just asked the young dog to do

[shekhina]

Daegon knows exactly what drop is, he's just stubborn. He's really not interested in food and for the past 5 months or so I'm guessing it has been an uphill battle just to keep any kind of weight on him. Food is not going to work

[MonElite]

Why dont you try not giving him his dinner one day and training the next day with something he really likes.

When I train my puppy my older dog screems the house down he wants to join so much.

yesterday when I took the older dog for a walk and some trainig the puppy broke the gate trying to get to us.

When I train the puppy the older dog does all excercises despite he isnt asked to do them.

[rakaaz]

Wish I could come up with something to help Shek, with the exception of Syrah all our guys are majorly food motivated. And even Syrah can get interested in some exciting stuff like cooked liver etc. Mind you I like the jealousy tactic, it certainly works with ours playing them off against each other.

[shekhina]

myszka, Daegon is so bad he refused to eat anything for more than a week and then STILL wouldn't take anything yummy. He just doesn't care. Kovu on the other hand goes bonkers over anything

Thanks rakaaz, it's very, very frustrating having a dog that is just not interested in anything but livestock I think the jealousy tactic will be the way to go

[Vickie]

Methinks he is waiting for the growl and then seeing it as a 'NOW I must drop'.... I think you already knew that though

Yes absolutely!

This is exactly why I think you should stop now, before you cement your training relationship with him in this method. I am sure he will try this method with every new thing you try to teach him b/c it works for him. Better to rules of the game now.

Vickie, what do you mean about training Daegon to take rewards?

Hmmm, it's kind of a big question to try to answer. I'm sure there will be plenty of ideas on this from plenty of people. Some random thoughts...some of which you probably already know:

Some/most dogs need to learn to learn. For me it is better to have a dog doing one thing to start with, with the ultimate enthusiasm, than 20 things with little/moderate enthusiasm, so I think it's worth spending that initial time as everything else will come quickly once they are operant.

I recently went through this with my pup. All I had really taught her was to come when called & to go to her crate on command. I started using her meal each day to train her little things. I started with a basic sit, lured her & gave her food when she did it. After 2-3 nights, she was sitting fast & enthusiastically, in front of me, beside me, with a signal, with just a verbal & each time she got a heap of praise as well as her food. I like the idea of working for their dinner. They have to eat each day and I always had some special treats (roast meat) on hand for her extra fast/perfect performances. We continued this for about a week (even though she knew it after the first day or so)

I then switched to a clicker because the next few things I wanted to teach her were a little more complex and I want to be able to catch the exact moment she did what I wanted. I don't use a clicker in general training, but I think it is very useful to help a dog learn to learn & also useful for speeding behaviours up.

A week later she had learnt 3-4 more things and was performing all of them very enthusiastically. Now all I have to do is take her inside to the rug (where we train each night) and she will go through her whole repertoire, LOL, like a maniac.

I believe you can increase the value of an item, purely because you are using it as a reward. Here is an example with Noah (my older & many say extremely stubborn dog). I can give him a piece of kibble & he will eat it (because all dogs like/need to eat). I can give him fried chicken & he will eat it & look for more and offer a few behaviours to get it (because it is his favourite). I can ask him to do a trick for a piece of kibble and suddenly that kibble becomes much greater value than the fried chicken, purely becasue I am using it as a reward for the trick. He will literally turn himself inside out to do what I want & anything else he can think of to add, LOL. Likewise with a ball. I had to teach him to retrieve from scratch b/c he had no desire whatsoever to do it. Now, he will chase a ball, but never so enthusiastically if that ball is a reward from a trick I have asked of him.

Trim is the same in agility, she likes to tug at any time, but never so much as after her run on course.

I think people are often suprised at just how much they can achieve if they truly set out to achieve something and consistently work on it in short sessions each day. We often see this with weaving in agility at our club. People spend 6 months trying to teach their dogs to weave in the lower classes & then get to a point where they are told that they cannot progress to the higher classes until they can weave. It is amazing how quickly this can happen once the person dedicates themself to the task.

LOL, this is long & I think I went way off track.

What I would do is pick a new behaviour for him to learn and be patient with him. Just do it every night with his dinner. In the beginning reward anything close to what you want & ignore what you don't. Make it something simple that you can lure & he can succeed in easily. Split his dinner into 3 portions & work in 5 minute sessions. As soon as he makes any real progress, double/triple what is in your hand. He obviously understands praise, so you can use that as well. If you are open to the clicker & understand it, it can certainly help speed things up. You may find you won't get anything impressive for 3-4 days and then suddenly it'll all click into place. From then on, it'll get easier & easier.

I never really accept the "but my dog doesn't like food" theory. Noah once went 5 days without food, purely through his stubborness. I just had to wait him out...then that was it. The fact is that dogs NEED food or they die. They have a very strong sense of survival, so I think it's often a case of us just expecting too much too soon. I think we also have to realise that like us they are all different & can learn differently to get the same end result. Trim was born operant , Noah became operant in a day, Zeus took a little longer but it was worth the time I took.

JMO & after all, you have nothing but 15 minutes a day to lose.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Vickie

[Nekhbet]

Does he get any correction at all? My mastiff sometimes does that but a good pop with the check chain for non compliance and he hits the deck. If the dog is going to be that stubborn, he gets one chance to comply before the correction comes along.