Training Contacts Vs. Slowing Dog

[FHRP]

I see many people saying "touch" and releasing the dog with praise. The problem is that I think the dog rarely understands what this means & they tend to be very hesitant...just going slow until the handler praises them. These contacts are rarely reliable unless the dog has a natural stride to get the contact or it is slow enough that it will hit it anyway.

This is so true Vickie and I know I'm guilty with my older Vizsla I was concentrating on speeding up contacts at a recent class and it became blatently obvious (again) that Flynn was basically slowing down the contact waiting for the praise and release and having no idea of where his feet should be. Fortunately (or unfortunately!) we have had relative succes with this method and at 9 I'm not about to retrain it I'm afraid. However, when putting my young guy through the same exercise who had been taught 2o2o more thoroughly I was able to get the speed and drive to the end. This is what highlighted the difference in understanding of the obstacle. Rogan's training hasn't been perfect and I find in trials he is waiting for me before perfoming the criteria Bad trainer

I never instruct my class to slow their dogs on contacts. I make them set criteria (my preferred being 2o2o) and try to get them to stick to it. I still find that 90% of them slow their dogs.... probably a reflection of me as an instructor

[kelpiechick]

Not necessarily a reflection of you as an Instructor, IMO more of a reflection of the time and effort the 'average agility class attendee' is willing to put into training contacts. Slowing down the dog often gives a very deceptive 'instant success' and it's very easy to believe that the dog understands what to do when in fact this is far from the truth. Also very hard to train 2020/running if students only have access to equipment once a week (Thank goodness Susan Garrett and her stairs have gone some way to helping with this - LOL)

Both 2020 and a true running contact take a lot of work and repetition to achieve, when I was training my first dog I know I wouldn't have understood the need for this (we learnt the PNP method - point 'n pray!) and he probably hit his contacts about 70% of the time and I thought that was great and could see no need to change what I was doing in any way.

2 dogs later and it's a whole different ball game !

[Cosmolo]

Sorry Pippi- thats what i meant to say, just a little dyslexic! For those of you who have replied that you would teach 2o2o, what do you do or suggest others do when a dog who has been taught the exercise and you believe understands it fully misses its contacts? I really want to know whether you continue the course, repeat the whole or part of the obstacle, any kind of no reward marker or verbal correction OR other type of correction??

[Cosmolo]

Anyone?!

[Vickie]

I have already given my response, I think?

Until recently I was repeating the whole obstacle with a NRM, I would NEVER advise continuing the course for a missed 2on 2off. It sends exactly the opposite message to the dog that you want. In fact that is why there are so many dogs who have perfect contacts in training & none in a trial. People are unwilling to give up that potential qually.

After the Ronda Carter seminar, I have changed to her method.. That is: do not allow the dog to repeat the obstacle but make it sit on the ground & hold it's stay while you go back and run the obstacle yourself & release the dog when you are ready. This is based on the theory that the problem is a release one, rather than an understanding of 2on 2off. It also prevents the dog being rewarded by getting back on the contact.

LOL, sorry if you didn't want mine again.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Vickie

[sidoney]

I agree with Vickie. I went to the Rhonda Carter seminar also, and her method of proofing contacts is the most effective I've seen. If you'd seen the changes in performance from dogs that understood the contact behaviour but weren't performing it, after only a few repetitions, I think you would be trying this method too.

It is worth noting that several dogs also got faster. This is probably because the criteria were getting clearer.

Edited January 15, 2007 by sidoney

[t(AD)pole]

I taught my dog to touch the ground with her nose at the bottom of the obstacle but now she just stops there (2on 2off) until released. I have been rewarding her for stopping even though she is not touching the ground with her nose like I origially wanted her to do. I am happy she is stopping there and I don't really care if shes not doing the nose touch just as long as she stops at the contact.

Do you think it matters that shes not doing what I originally asked even though what shes doing is what I want (if that makes sense)?

[sidoney]

A lot of people drop the nose touch. If you are happy with the 2O2O and you are clear and consistent with the criteria for that you should be fine.

[Pippi]

For those of you who have replied that you would teach 2o2o, what do you do or suggest others do when a dog who has been taught the exercise and you believe understands it fully misses its contacts? I really want to know whether you continue the course, repeat the whole or part of the obstacle, any kind of no reward marker or verbal correction OR other type of correction??

For a start I would question whether my dog really does understand what is required. If the answer is no, then I go back to basics and backchain the behaviour, making sure there is a clear release in there and the dog knows what it is. If I decide yes he does, then I would never allow him to get away with missing contacts, we would not continue the course but I would repeat the obstacle making sure he stops with 2o2o and waits for my release. I try to avoid any type of correction in agility, not saying never, but I try to avoid it. I always assume that it is me that is doing something wrong, not the dog. So I spend the most time looking at and evaluating what I am doing as a trainer rather than what the dog is doing.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Pippi