Hardest Area/field To Train Your Dog In.

[country joe]

From your experience what do you think has been the hardest/most complicated field you have trained your dogs inand the standard you have reached?

My experience has been

OB = easy, to train to CD standard. Never been beyond that

Field work = Medium. Finding game can be hard, winning open trials is hard as you

have to beat the top dogs.

Retrieving trials = Hard. Most complicated area to train. Very hard to win at All-Age level.

Country Joe.

[dogdude]

I have not got much experience in other dog sports other than obedience trialling and confirmation shows.

I think it is very hard to train an outright trial winner (not talking about class winner) in obedience. I was very lucky enough to win my first "best in trial" with my first attempt at novice level. From "novice" up, you are competing against everyone except the ccd grade dogs.

[Sayreovi]

With Nova, probably flyball, he was such a pain in the arse, he would run off half way through to go mark, forget the ball or drop it....but thats about it, ive found he is easy to train in agility, everything he does wrong though is always my fault i have to keep my attention on him 110% when doing agility as he will nick off to go pee on something

Darcy has been easy to train in everything, he does everything i tell him and pays attention all the time. I am going to eventually train him in retrieving and/or field trials.

It really depends on the dog, some would be natural agility dogs others would be natural retrievers so wouldnt be as hard to train.

Edited January 11, 2007 by tollersowned

[Working_Setters]

I agree that field/retrieving trials are very hard to win, as it's not just a question of having your dog complete an exercise, or series of exercises, rather you have to do those exercise(s) better than every other dog there on the day. In addition I think field trials in particular are a real test of obedience, as you frequently encounter hares, rabbits, foxes etc that pose a serious distraction to all but the best trained dogs.

However perhaps the hardest event I've trained a dog for was the German style versatile (utility) gundog tests I did in the US. These were a real challenge b/c of the number and diversity of exercises that are assessed in one day. There is field work (locating and pointing, then retrieval of birds). Two types of water work, one similar to a novice level retrieving trial here in Oz, the other is a swamp search (a duck is released somewhere in a swamp) and dog has to locate it without assistance from handler. There is a tracking exercise. There is an obedience exercise, in addition to the assessment of general obedience throughout the other exercises. It's a tough test, the dog and handler have to change mental gears frequently and bring the right approach to each different exercise. It's rare to find a dog that's a "natural" in all the different areas that are assessed, which adds to the training challenge.

[Sayreovi]

It's rare to find a dog that's a "natural" in all the different areas that are assessed, which adds to the training challenge.

I know that, but its going to be easier to train a dog for trails of whatever when it is that way inclined naturally.

ie. trying to train a reluctant retriever with bad water ethics then one that loves water and retrieving, or training a hound to do high level obedience, certainly not impossibly but definately harder to train then your usual mix of Goldens and BCs.

[MrsD]

It's rare to find a dog that's a "natural" in all the different areas that are assessed, which adds to the training challenge.

I know that, but its going to be easier to train a dog for trails of whatever when it is that way inclined naturally.

ie. trying to train a reluctant retriever with bad water ethics then one that loves water and retrieving, or training a hound to do high level obedience, certainly not impossibly but definately harder to train then your usual mix of Goldens and BCs.

I think Working Setters was just referring to the Utility Gundog class in the US since it has so many different facets .

[Kelpie-i]

Obedience, certainly easiest!

Herding: difficult because most dog's have their own minds and so do sheep!

[Working_Setters]

It's rare to find a dog that's a "natural" in all the different areas that are assessed, which adds to the training challenge.

I know that, but its going to be easier to train a dog for trails of whatever when it is that way inclined naturally.

ie. trying to train a reluctant retriever with bad water ethics then one that loves water and retrieving, or training a hound to do high level obedience, certainly not impossibly but definately harder to train then your usual mix of Goldens and BCs.

I think Working Setters was just referring to the Utility Gundog class in the US since it has so many different facets .

Yep that's exactly what I meant

It's one thing to find/train a dog that's good in water OR good in the field OR good at tracking etc, it quite another to find/train a dog that's good in the water AND good in the field AND good at tracking, all in the one day.

[Lablover]

Hi Mr W.

The most difficult: Retrieving trials as they require not only a dog who can mark, take a good line and handle on blinds, are great in water, have outstanding memories, handle suction of falls etc. I also think Australian retrieving trials are conceptuallly the most difficult in the world, as so many requirements are unnatural to the dog, but I love competing all the same.

[Working_Setters]

Herding: difficult because most dog's have their own minds and so do sheep!

I agree introducing another animal into the equation certainly can (and usually does) complicate matters a great deal.

Edited January 11, 2007 by Working_Setters

[fidelis Border Collies]

Herding: difficult because most dog's have their own minds and so do sheep!

I agree introducing another animal into the equation certainly can (and usually does) complicate matters a great deal.

Well i guess i am of a different mind set i think Obedience is hardest as you are asking (Specially with my Breed) for the dog to do something that is very unnatural for it to do. The border Collie is breed to do nice wide outruns and to head the sheep all those straight lines in obedience and wanting the dog to work so close is very unnatural.

Herding on the other hand should be natural and some thing the dog takes to straight away. Training a dog that has not natural ability on the other hand is very difficult.

Tracey

[country joe]

Working Setters

I find it interesting to read that in your experience is you have found it harder to train you dogs for field trials rather than retrieving trials when your dogs are bred for field work. or did you use another breed for retrieving trials?

I have only seen one Irish setter and one English Pointer run in retrieving trials

I have read the new rules for the natural ability test for GSPs.

Friends of mine have been involved in their development. They sound very similar to the tests you are talking about.

Its interesting to see that there is a difference of opinion with people who have done hearding and OB.

Country Joe

Edited January 12, 2007 by country joe

[Working_Setters]

I agree that herding should come naturally to a BC, finding and setting birds should come naturally to Setter and retrieving should come naturally to a Lab, never-the-less it takes a good deal more than these "natural inclinations" to win a trial. I can't really comment much on herding trials since I've never competed in them, but from what I can see by watching them and certainly in the case of FTs/RTs your dog is also required to be obedient (heel,sit,stay,fetch,etc), but it is required to perform this obedience in the face of frequently massive temptations/distractions, distractions that I feel are far greater than those encountered in the Ob Ring. From what I've seen of Ob events (again these are just observations as I've never entered a formal Ob event), the biggest challenge is to maintain the dog's interest in what are a rather boring set of exercises. (Boring when compared to the herding sheep for a BC or finding quail for a Setter)

With regard to dogs working sheep/quail/etc; what I'm trying to say is that adding another animal, particularly a wild animal like quail, adds an element of unpredictability to the event (unpredictability that you have to try and train for). The behaviour of a dead or inanimate object is entirely predictable, not so with a living creature. In many events there are really 2 variables, the dog and the handler. In events like FTs there are 3 variables, the dog, the handler and the other animals encountered in the field.

Joe - I must have mislead you with my post, I've not entered my setters in any RTs and I agree that it would be a good deal more difficult to train my setters for RTs than FTs. Many setters are fond of the water, good swimmers and excellent duck dogs, my male in particular uses his nose to good effect and does an excellent job of busting through heavy aquatic vegetation locating downed ducks, but as you well know RTs are an entirely different matter.

With regard to the “new naturally ability test” you mentioned;

Is it a "GSP" event, or is it open to all Utility dogs?

Which canine organisation is going to run the test? (I know WGAA has plans for this type of event, and held a training day/"test run" type even last year)

In the USA there is a "naturally ability" test, which is for pups and is designed to test basic inherited instincts and abilities, however there are several more advanced levels of testing for adult dogs, that whilst requiring naturally ability also require a good deal of training - much like the training needed to turn a naturally retrieving Lab into a competitive RT dog.

Edited January 12, 2007 by Working_Setters

[Lablover]

In the USA there is a "naturally ability" test, which is for pups and is designed to test basic inherited instincts and abilities, however there are several more advanced levels of testing for adult dogs, that whilst requiring naturally ability also require a good deal of training - much like the training needed to turn a naturally retrieving Lab into a competitive RT dog.

Working Setters,

A friend of mine trained and trialled field springers in the US and the UK. He confused me greatly,( it took me, shall we say more than one day to start to understand LOL ), the differences between the "trial" requirements. Interesting nevertheless from a training point of view. I think I will stick to retrieving trials!!!

[Working_Setters]

Hi Lablover,

I was interested in your comment that Oz RTs are conceptually the most difficult in the world. Could you explain this further please? What makes Oz trials conceptually more difficult than those in the USA for example? Also I wonder how you think the top Oz retrievers would perform in USA RTs, and what aspects would our dogs find the most difficult? Conversely, how would the top American dogs perform in our RTs and what aspects would of our trials would be they find most difficult?

TIA

[FHRP]

I have dabbled in many dog sports trying aglity, obedience, tracking, flyball and retrieving. I have found that training the basics of dogs sports is pretty straight forward and achievable by many dogs. To get to the top in any of them takes a lot of time and dedication and the individual dogs temperament and natural ability plays a role.

By far the hardest (and dare I say most rewarding) Novice title I have put on a dog is an NRD (Novice Retrieving Dog). As already touched on by WS, to get this title you have to beat all other dogs at your level in a trial, it's not only getting through and qalifying. It took a heck of a lot more training to do this than to get through Novice agility or obedience. However I did choose to try it with a Utility gundog rather than a dedicated retriever.

My main focus with my dogs has been agility and my two Vizslas have gained their Masters titles with relative ease. However with the new Agility Ch title, I doubt either will ever get there. Both went through their Novice obedience titles with ease and bother have gained their Open titles (a struggle with the older, straight forward with th younger). Neither have UD titles, but if I put in the time and effort that I have into Agility I would expect they could get there. I also believe the OC is more achievable than the AgCh for my dogs if that is what I was after (but by no means easy). I've touched on Retrieving, and my young boy who I trial has managed a win at the next level and if I plugged away long enough he could probably get an RRD, or maybe not. A RTCh title??? No way, not this dog. Tracking is the only dog sport that I haven't 'got anywhere' with. Mainly due to time restrictions, and lack of training opportunities. I hope to try it again with my younger V when he's finished with retrieving. Flyball I managed to train my younger guy the concepts of in two classes, however prefecting a swimmers turn and shaving down the time I would imagine would take much more time and effort, something I'm not interested in though.

So going by my experience Retrieving has been the hardest field I've trained for. However, a dogs breed and natural ability certainly comes into it. To make a flat statement that one field is the hardest would be wrong IMO.

[FHRP]

With regard to the "new naturally ability test" you mentioned;

Is it a "GSP" event, or is it open to all Utility dogs?

Which canine organisation is going to run the test? (I know WGAA has plans for this type of event, and held a training day/"test run" type even last year)

In the USA there is a "naturally ability" test, which is for pups and is designed to test basic inherited instincts and abilities, however there are several more advanced levels of testing for adult dogs, that whilst requiring naturally ability also require a good deal of training - much like the training needed to turn a naturally retrieving Lab into a competitive RT dog.

I think what country joe may have been referring to is the Utility Gundogs Working Test which is certainly going to be open to all Utility Gundog breeds. It is going to be run through the VCA. They are intending on applying to the ANKC to have titles awarded for the tests. I have been sent the judges guidelines and from what I have read about of the NAVHDA test in America, it sounds very similar, although may be more thorough than their Natural Ability test? It tests conformation, obedience, retrieving, pointing and tracking game.

[helen]

I have trained obedience, agility, flyball and tracking.

For me novice obedience was definately the hardest, especially under the old rules with the 2 lots of heeling. I think the new rules are much better. Open obedience, although I have not done consistant training has probably been very easy in comparison as it is much more fun.

Edited January 14, 2007 by helen

[Working_Setters]

With regard to the "new naturally ability test" you mentioned;

Is it a "GSP" event, or is it open to all Utility dogs?

Which canine organisation is going to run the test? (I know WGAA has plans for this type of event, and held a training day/"test run" type even last year)

In the USA there is a "naturally ability" test, which is for pups and is designed to test basic inherited instincts and abilities, however there are several more advanced levels of testing for adult dogs, that whilst requiring naturally ability also require a good deal of training - much like the training needed to turn a naturally retrieving Lab into a competitive RT dog.

I think what country joe may have been referring to is the Utility Gundogs Working Test which is certainly going to be open to all Utility Gundog breeds. It is going to be run through the VCA. They are intending on applying to the ANKC to have titles awarded for the tests. I have been sent the judges guidelines and from what I have read about of the NAVHDA test in America, it sounds very similar, although may be more thorough than their Natural Ability test? It tests conformation, obedience, retrieving, pointing and tracking game.

Thanks FHR,

I'm a big fan of this type of testing and when I was in the USA I often wondered why we lacked this type of testing in Oz, naturally I hope this event is a great success. Now that I have a utility dog in the yard, I'm particularly interested . There is much talk about what can be done to increase the participation rates in field events, I think these tests have the potential to do that, they are certainly very popular in the USA. I hope that eventally these tests will be run a various levels, easy, medium, hard (or whatever names you give them), in much the same way many other doggy events are structured. The advantage of doing so is that it not only gives people long term goals to aim for, but it also keeps more advanced people associated with the event, so those training their dog for the "hard" test, are able to give assistance/advice to those training for the "easy/medium" tests. Since dogs are compared to a written standard, rather than each other, it's not a competition b/t dogs. Therefore handlers are apt to be more generious in assisting each other, making the lower levels of these type of events great for folk wanting to get a start in field work, without the pressure of competition.

The Kiwis are a bit more advanced than us in their efforts to establish a similar test, as friend of mine has been to Europe and the USA to learn how it's done over there, before setting up a similar system in NZ. Bodo Winterhelt, one of the founders of NAVHDA, is currently in NZ and it will be interesting to learn what he thinks of the dogs there. Perhaps this NZ experience might be useful when establishing Utility tests here?

[Lablover]

Hi Lablover,

I was interested in your comment that Oz RTs are conceptually the most difficult in the world. Could you explain this further please? What makes Oz trials conceptually more difficult than those in the USA for example? Also I wonder how you think the top Oz retrievers would perform in USA RTs, and what aspects would our dogs find the most difficult? Conversely, how would the top American dogs perform in our RTs and what aspects would of our trials would be they find most difficult?

TIA

The degree of difficulty is due to, (sorry, I have no idea how to double quote), the reasons previously mentioned in this thread.

As my personal experience has been sending ONE Australian bred labrador to the US and importing ONE US field breed labrador, I cannot fairly answer your question. I enjoy all my dogs. The bottom line I suppose, would be train the dog, to what is expected in the relevant trials.