Greyhound Whinging

[ish]

I would like some advice on how to deal with my 8 month old entire male greyhound Vespa. He was a rescue dog and has been here since he was about 10-12 weeks old.

Having raised and trained a few GSDs, I'm pretty firm with him (ie NILIF and basic training) as I would be with any of my dogs. I'm still trying to work out if its fair to expect as much from him as I would with the GSDs, but thats probably unrelated.

Anyway, Vespa sooks/whinges. Alot. Its driving me crazy and I don't know how to make it any clearer to him that sooking does not get him what he wants. I never give in to him, if he sooks when I get home, I don't go out to him if/until he's quiet. If he starts whiging when I making his tea, and he's not quiet by the time I take it out to him, he misses out. If he whinges while I'm feeding the other dogs, he sleeps outside etc. I discovered that if I yelled out to him 'No', he would wag his tail and be happy, so now I have to pretend he doesn't exist when he's sooking. Its been going on for weeks, getting worse and worse. What is he pay out for doing this if I'm not providing it?

I have a bark collar, which I use on him - it stops the bigger WOO WOO WOO howls and the barking, but he can still do a fair level of sooking with it on.

Generally, he's a good dog. He sits and waits for everything, doors being opened, pats, to get in the car, for his food - I'd just love to stop the whinging.

Edited January 5, 2007 by ImaShepHead

[cowanbree]

I am not a trainer but run a fairly large pack so have a bit of experience dealing with this. Firstly recognize he is a dog and thinks like a dog. He does not associate missing his tea and being hungry with whining 4 hours ago or sleeping outside because he was making noise when you fed the other dogs. Their minds don’t work like that, all he know is he is hungry and by himself. I have had a lot of issues with noise at tea time until I watched Jan Fennel (?) CD. She is a great advocate of making the dogs think for himself. I prepare tea and all the dogs have to be sitting or lying down quietly before they are fed. It wasn’t that hard to teach, I simply stood making no eye contact until they relaxed, then I picked up the bowls. Each time they made a noise tea stopped until they sat back down. First night it took me over an hour to feed 12 dogs but now they know what I expect. I still get the occasional backslide normally when I am in a hurry but mostly tea time is a quiet event. It is more a matter or timing the reward than the punishment

[ish]

Firstly recognize he is a dog and thinks like a dog. He does not associate missing his tea and being hungry with whining 4 hours ago or sleeping outside because he was making noise when you fed the other dogs. Their minds don’t work like that, all he know is he is hungry and by himself.

I'm not sure that I agree with you - maybe I didn't explain myself properly.

Vespa is penned on the opposite side of a shed to my other dogs. When I come home, normally he barks and jumps around. The other dogs can do this too, so I go inside until everyone settles a bit and then go out to see them. I don't mind a little bit of a carry on when I first get home, as long as it stops quickly. If when I go outside, Vespa is still barking or whinging, I go to the other dogs and not him. If he stops at any stage, I go to him and give him attention.

The dogs often spark up when they hear me get the food bowls out, but because I soak their food they know there is a delay in it arriving so they wait quietly - except Vespa. They all know TOT so they're sitting quietly when I get into the dog shed. If Vespa continues to sook the whole time the food is soaking, and is still sooking when I walk out the door to feed everyone, I wait until last to feed him, incase he shuts up - but if he doesn't he misses out.

Normally if he's going to sleep inside I will bring him in directly after the other dogs have been fed, so if he's quiet I'll then let him out to come inside. If he's at the gate whinging, he stays there. How can that be clearer for him, if you're quiet you get food, if you're noisy, you miss out. If you're quiet you get attention, if you're noisy, you don't.

The other one I forgot to mention last night is sooking in his crate when he does sleep inside. This is only a recent thing - maybe the last month or so.

He knows the routine (tea, toilet, crate) and he's mostly really good in his crate. I work varying shifts at work so wake up time can be either 5:30am or up to 10am - however I make sure I only ever sleep a max of 8 hours to be fair on the dogs who are locked up. None of my dogs have ever had a strict morning routine because of my varying shifts, so its not a change in wake up time that is upsetting him. Vespa is always let out to go for a wee before he is put in the crate. He's started waking up an hour or 2 earlier than wake up time, whinging and sooking. He gets really worked up about it. The problem is, its more of a "I'd like to get out now" thing than a "I'm busting to go to the toilet" thing - he will go when I let him out, but if I ignore his whinging until its been 8 hours, he's never had an accident. I know he's not busting too, because he always does a few laps around the house before stopping to toilet. Plus, he's been inside the house during the day for longer than 8 hours without a toilet break.

I hope that explains better whats going on.

[cowanbree]

To my mind though the reward is far more important than the punishment, yes don’t feed him until he is quiet but the minute he is he should be fed so he associates the fact that he stopped whining with he got his tea. I had one dog in particular that this way a real challenge for so she was crated to be fed, I stood holding her tea ignoring her until she stopped barking and the minute she stopped and sat down she was rewarded with praise and her tea. She could choose to bark or be fed, she quickly made the association and tea is now mostly quiet. It just seems to me that you are not timing the reward appropriately, it has to be done the minute he stops not 10 minutes later

[greying-fast]

Also maybe see separate thread in dog rescue (about transport btw Albury/Gipplsland) between Trisven 13 and HannahH. The people who deal a lot with greyhounds seem to be indicating that when canine brains were handed out, the greys were off doing zoomies. Still, they're gorgeous, sensitive dogs who try hard to please, and I adore mine even if they're not super-bright :

QUOTE(Trisven13 @ 5th Jan 2007 - 08:32 AM)

You sure will enjoy him Hannah but he is not a smart dog . You know that line in the song "I Kissed a Girl"???? Dumb as a box of hammers but he's such a handsome guy! That describes Spotty Spencer to a T I think!!!

to be honest i have meant to ask other greyhound owners, and NOT MEANING TO OFFEND ANYONE as I love the greys to bits.....but are they slightly cognitively challengend?? my lot seem to be rather "slow' on the uptake over simple things.... ! not quite as sharp as the jrt's !!! but still beautiful

I think the fact that they are not quite as sharp as the JRT is for most people the attraction . Spotty Spencer really is a bit of a nong.... he is just such a puppy!

[Rebanne]

If Vespa continues to sook the whole time the food is soaking, and is still sooking when I walk out the door to feed everyone, I wait until last to feed him, incase he shuts up - but if he doesn't he misses out.

Okay, I reckon this is a stress thing. He might be whinging because he doesn't know if he's getting fed or not. I've re read your thread a couple of times but I can't see where you say he gets fed eventually. I'm sure he does but I can't see that. Why not try changing the routine? Try making it more individual. Try what cowanbree says - put Vespa in a crate and feed him in there, as soon as he is quiet whip that food in there fast, gradually increasing the time he needs to be quiet.

My greys have been bigger whingers than my GSD's. But they haven't barked near as much

GSD's and greyhounds are worlds apart. Yes Vespa needs his manners and basic obedience etc but they are different. They can be quite sooky. Piper is a pain in the .... with his sooking but that's him, I live with it. He sooks in the morning to wake me up but goes straight back to bed when I do get up. But after 5 years he hasn't figured out, make Mum get up, than out you go!

Grey-fast very few dogs are "cognitively challenged" they just need the owners/trainers to adjust/find a way of training that fits them better. Greyt term BTW.

"cognitively challenged" love it

[imy]

I disagree, I think they are VERY sharp. Thats the problem

I don't think he is associating the whinging with no-dinner. I like the way you give him attention when he stops whinging, its an instant reward, but if everyone else had dinner and I didn't AND I didn't know why, I think I'd sook louder than ever!

Maybe some specific treat training would work better? Like: Have the treats there when you go to his pen, something he really loves... make no eye contact but when he stops sooking BANG! treat instantly and link it with a sound like "shhhh" so he knows that when you say "shhh" you want him to be quiet. Do it again and again and again.

Not giving him his dinner isn't rewarding him for what he is doing well. He needs to know what you want him to do before you can punnish him for disobeying orders.

If anyone disagrees, let me know! I am by no means an expert with dogs.

[Gone Grey]

I agree Imy, I think greyhounds are actually very intelligent, they just react to situations very differently to other dogs. They are quite sensitive and respond to less hard-core training methods better than some other breeds. With our first dog, I think we were too strict on him and undermined his confidence in the end. We didn't know to tailor the training methods to his more sensitive disposition, and he ended up a nervous wreck. (under a behaviourist supervision I might add. )

Rebanne put it the best, ' they just need the owners/trainers to adjust/find a way of training that fits them better'

Vespa sounds a bit stressed to me too. Mine aren't what you'd call well trained but they're happy, confident dogs, they get along famously and I have very little problem with whinging. We learnt a lot from our earlier mistakes. Try not to be too hard on him.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I agree Imy, I think greyhounds are actually very intelligent, they just react to situations very differently to other dogs. They are quite sensitive and respond to less hard-core training methods better than some other breeds. With our first dog, I think we were too strict on him and undermined his confidence in the end. We didn't know to tailor the training methods to his more sensitive disposition, and he ended up a nervous wreck. (under a behaviourist supervision I might add. )

Rebanne put it the best, ' they just need the owners/trainers to adjust/find a way of training that fits them better'

Vespa sounds a bit stressed to me too. Mine aren't what you'd call well trained but they're happy, confident dogs, they get along famously and I have very little problem with whinging. We learnt a lot from our earlier mistakes. Try not to be too hard on him.

Ditto. Greyhounds aren't like other breeds and are IMO poles apart from GSDs for a host of reasons, most of which have to do with what each breed is designed to do. GSDs are great at obedience, while the average GH is, well...great at lounging! And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist - Lilly is one of the greatest lounge lizards in history and I love her b/c she's *special*...and she's a GH.

Some GHs are born whiners and others aren't, but IMO it's not something to stress out about. I'd *like* it if Lilly was a whiner...I think it's kinda cute in the GH...ask Paula about Phoebe in that respect. :p

Perhaps you need to have someone that's very familiar with the GH breed to help you work out what's worth doing and what's not...I don't really do any training with Lilly but that's b/c she's another GH that's cognitively challenged too!

[Greytmate]

Whinging can be an anxiety thing with greyhounds rather than an attention seeking thing.

Possibly he is not getting enough exercise and interaction with other dogs. Normally greyhounds of that age are not penned in isolation, but are allowed to run in a yard with other dogs for company and play.

Greyhounds thrive on routine, and he may be a lot quieter and more settled if he gets up, gets fed, gets let out for a run, gets let into the house and gets locked up again at roughly the same time every day. Be as consistant as you can, and don't allow him to miss meals or spend the night isolated.

If you try this for a few weeks and it still doesn't work, then an instant negative reinforcement is going to be a lot more effective than what you are doing now. Greyhounds hate getting in trouble, so clear disapproval does work at stopping many undesirable behaviours.

Expecting him to work out for himself that quietness brings rewards may be asking way too much.

Edited January 7, 2007 by Greytmate

[Cosmolo]

Greytmate- i'm interested in your thoughts on developing more of a routine with the dog. If the whining is an anxiety based behaviour, i don't believe routine is necesarily a good thing. The biggest problem with routine is that it is usually difficult to adhere to for long periods of time (for instance, generally people don't keep the same routine on a weekend as they do during the week) and, when not adhered to- the dog has no way to explain why that has happened and hence, the feeling of anxiety worsens. Could you please expand as to why you find routine to be of benefit?

[Greytmate]

Greyhounds have their own daily routine whether the owner initiates it or not.

We have found that when moving greyhounds around, the sooner they are given a predictable routine, the quicker the greyhound will settle in to the new home and be happy.

While weekend routine is different to weekday for us, the greyhound will generally get up at the same time, want to eat at the same time, sleep at the same times, and toilet at the same time.

Bad habits can become routine, or good habits can become routine, it is up to the owner what they allow to happen.

Routines can be changed and the dog will cope with that usually within two weeks but often much sooner. As long as the greyhound can get into a routine, they will settle in a new home much quicker than most other breeds.

Greyhound differ physically from other breeds, their energy is expended over a very short time, so it is not a good idea to have them miss out on meals.

The biggest problem with routine is that it is usually difficult to adhere to for long periods of time (for instance, generally people don't keep the same routine on a weekend as they do during the week)

Greyhounds do not have any problem adhering to their routines for long periods of time. People might have problems adhering to routines, but that is no concern of the greyhound as long as a bed and a regular meal is available.

[Trisven13]

I should stress that by saying greyhounds are not so bright I don't mean that they're stupid! Anyone who knows me knows that I think Bart is the smartest dog on the planet BUT I have to say that I don't find them to be as smart as many of the other breeds of dogs that I rescue. That, to me, is what makes them such a great breed to own as they are not the constant challenge that, say, a kelpie may be.

I suppose, as someone who does all breed rescue, I find that the smartest dogs are normally the most difficult dogs to live with, as they are constantly challenging you to find different ways to keep them occupied, learning etc. I don't find that with greyhounds which is why my OH says another greyhound doesn't count.

And Spotty Spencer IS cognitively challenged .

[greying-fast]

I think the really interesting thing about the feedback provided in this thread is that dog breeds are not a 'one size fits all' proposition, so that what works perfectly well for GSDs will not necessarily work for greyhounds.

I think Trisven's point about greyhounds being really low maintenance dogs is very true (the reason why many of us greyhound owners love greyhounds more than other dogs!) so that whatever 'maintenance' is being provided to this dog cannot be the right kind of maintenance for a greyhound if it is whining more and more.

It would be really interesting to hear how he reacts to the different treatment suggested. Good luck and looking forward to any updates.

Edited January 8, 2007 by greying-fast

[ish]

Please note I've never suggested what works for GSDs has to work for greyhounds. I consider myself reasonably experienced with training GSDs to be good companions and a few in serious obedience, but Vespa is my first greyhound and whilst some things are the same, lots is different too! Vessie IS a low maintainance dog, typical greyhound. If he's inside with me, he's asleep on the couch, happy as can be - same as for most of the day when he's outside (excluding meal times or when something fun is happening inside or outside with another dog). He gets an informal training/play session every few days for about 10 minutes where we practise sits, drops, short stays, I check his teeth/nails etc - I don't expect him to do things my trial dogs do.

Whinging can be an anxiety thing with greyhounds rather than an attention seeking thing.

Possibly he is not getting enough exercise and interaction with other dogs. Normally greyhounds of that age are not penned in isolation, but are allowed to run in a yard with other dogs for company and play.

I had to laugh at this Vespa has half an hour of free running on my 6.5 acres each day, usually with a GSD or three to chase around. He is also penned with my 3 year old GSD who thinks she's a puppy, and the 2 of them play, chase and wrestle all day long. When I said the puppy yard was away from the other dogs, I didn't think to mention that he was penned with a friend. He gets along well with all my GSDs and spends time with them all. On occasion I willl leave him on his own, just so he's not dependant on having another dog with him but more of the time he has a buddy.

Greyhounds thrive on routine, and he may be a lot quieter and more settled if he gets up, gets fed, gets let out for a run, gets let into the house and gets locked up again at roughly the same time every day. Be as consistant as you can, and don't allow him to miss meals or spend the night isolated.

I can't provide that for him which is why I don't have a strict routine with any of my dogs. I don't think its fair if I can't consistantly do things the same each day to start building his hopes that he knows how it is going to work. I know my parents dog is a 6pm dinner dog - she carries on like an idiot from 5:55 onwards, barking, jumping around, stressing out until she gets fed because she knows the routine - my neighbours would have a fit if the 6 dogs who live here did that! With the different shifts I work, going away to Melbourne for dog events occasionally, unexpected things like cows or kangaroos in the paddock, extreme hot/cold weather interfering with exercise times its just not possible and more so I think Vespa would find it more stressful to have his routine broken. The only thing my dogs know for certain each day is when I get up, doesn't matter what time, I will let them out to toilet and if I am going to work they will then be locked up for breakfast and stay locked in until I get home. They also know they will be locked up an hour before tea and once they've had tea, doesn't matter what time, its bed time.

If you try this for a few weeks and it still doesn't work, then an instant negative reinforcement is going to be a lot more effective than what you are doing now. Greyhounds hate getting in trouble, so clear disapproval does work at stopping many undesirable behaviours.

Expecting him to work out for himself that quietness brings rewards may be asking way too much.

What do you suggest for negative reinforcement? The 2 main situations I want help with is when he is inside in his crate and is sooking to get out in the morning (his crate is at the end of a short passage way, about 5 meters from my bedroom) and when I get home from work and he is barking and sooking at me for attention (his pen is 20 meters away from the house). He doesn't sook if I am with him, so I cannot go over to the puppy yard and wait for him to sook to tell him off, if I'm there, he's happy. The problem I have with him whinging at meal time is the minute I go to him/he sees me after I've fed the other dogs, he stops whinging - he's won, I'm there with his food. I could tell him off, but he doesn't care, his tail is going because his whinging brought me to him with his food - he succeeded. This is why he very occasionally misses out on meals - feeding him is reinforcing that sooking brings him food.

This morning when he heard my alarm go off he started sooking and howling - he knew I was at the most 5 minutes away from letting him out, because I have an alarm set every morning and he gets let out the minute I get out of bed - I just don't understand his behaviour.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Its correct in saying that there are many more than one training method, but when it comes to saying that GSDs are different to Greyhounds, I dont agree with this in essence, I believe training is temperament specific, not breed specific.

There are hard shepherds & soft shepherds, hard & soft in any breed.

Training should be designed around the temperament of the dog in front of you....

I have met many a trainer that has a method for a certain breed, these people never seemed to achieve much with any thing but the main stream of the breed.

Moving on though, depending on how much time this dog is in the pen, this alone could be causing stress, thus causing whinging... On the other end of the scale, the dog could have discovered that whinging results in getting attention, & is not stress related at all..

I would default back to a positive training step before trying a negative one...

I would excercise this dog heavily for 2 weeks, with lots of runs etc & see what impact it will have...

If no results & would design a plan around correcting it.

[greying-fast]

As I understand it, this dog is a foster dog that is meant to be rehomed once he is accepted into a rescue group or a forever home is found for him. Given the sorts of people that adopt greyhounds are unlikely to crate him at night or pen him during the day, maybe enforcing this treatment is not particularly setting him up for life as a pet?

Most of us when we get home immediately greet, romp with, or cuddle the dogs (then kiss the kids and say hello to the OH) who are obviously just as pleased to see us. Is it natural to leave him penned outside with you going into the house? Maybe it works for your GSDs because they are of that discipline, but he clearly wants to be with you the minute you get home and I'd be surprised if most pet owners thought that was being sooky.

Obviously the professionals can say more about training methods, temperament etc, but I don't think we should overlook what he is meant to be being 'trained' for - and that is to be a domestic pet.

[ish]

Vespa is my own dog greying-fast - not a foster. He is penned because we are on acreage and not all my dogs get along - so for their own safety.

If your dogs want the steak that you're cooking for dinner, do you give it to them just because they want it? Its the same as Vespa wanting attention the minute I get home. Its my time, if I want to come inside to check my phone messages, turn on the computer, have a drink etc before I go to him, I will do so. He isn't the boss of me.

He is being 'trained' to be MY domestic pet and I expect him to behave in a manner that suits me.

ETA - if Vespa was a foster being trained to live in a backyard, he would still be expected to be either alone or with another dog for periods of time without driving the neighbourhood crazy with his sooking. It would be a very lucky occurance for a dog to find a home where they had attention on tap 24/7

Edited January 8, 2007 by ImaShepHead

[greying-fast]

Sorry, I misunderstood your post offering to take on the greyhound Reggie (Rescue section) where you said you were already fostering a grey until it was accepted by an organistion.

Personally I wouldn't compare greeting an animal with giving it anything it wanted but never mind.

[Guest Piximatosis]

Ahh ISH, Kaeleigh is the same.

She started sooking in her crate as soon as the sun came up and would then whine constantly (breathe in, whine, breathe in, whine) for HOURS until I got up. Same as Vespa, she didn't need to wee or anything... just wanted up and wanted up NOW thank you very much. Ignoring behaviour does not work with Kaeleigh and never has - all those who know her will testify to that ESPECIALLY my old housemate Tramissa who lived with her for 10 months.

The way I got around her sooking and crashing around in the crate was actually by getting rid of it altogether. She now has a trampoline bed that she stays on... and if she gets up in the middle of the night, I can growl "GOTOBED" without needing to get up myself and she slinks back and quietly goes to sleep. I don't know exactly what it was about the crate vs bed that stopped the sooking but hey... who's complaining?

I say stop feeding him in the pen altogether and bring him up to the house to feed him. Crate him and stand there and just wait until he is quiet.... the SECOND he is, plonk down the food bowl. Like I did with Kaeleigh, you can build it up a bit over time so that he's quiet for a few minutes before you feed him... but I agree that he's not associating noise vs quiet with not eating vs eating, BECAUSE when he does eventually shut up he still doesn't get his dinner... if you see what I mean. If you're going to with-hold a reward until he presents the desired behaviour, you need to actually give it when he DOES offer the behaviour... which you've been missing unfortunately. In his mind... he's noisy and he doesn't get food.. but when he shuts up (after you've gone) he doesn't get it either. I'm not picking you to bits because christ I understand how frustrating it is (could throttle Kaeleigh some days ) but sometimes it's hard to look at things objectively when you're close to them. I can imagine it would be tricky to stand down there and wait until he's quiet which is why I think you should forget feeding him down there altogether. Bring him up to the house, wait until he's shut up and then feed.. good luck to ya!

Edited January 8, 2007 by Piximatosis