shoemonster Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 (edited) Ok, I have a really stubborn dog lol Because I've let him be, haha, at least I know it though! I have lured/bribed too much I'm afraid (he's my first dog, I'm learning all the time!) He performs wonderfully for treats but often he will not comply if he knows I have no treats or the request will be in slow mo, no enthusiasm Any ideas on weaning him off them more? If I'm ever going to trial I need to get him to learn that his reward can come from somewhere else after multiple requests Stella gave me a good diea of putting pots of treats around the house and going to them after asking for a sit, drop, etc etc I tried this then I got slack (plus Molly learnt to grab them and take them to the cubby house and chew the container open to get the insides) I will go back to this method - maybe I need solid jars? lol Any other suggestions as well The other day I put treats on the table and tried heeling out around and back to the table for a treat, he is very hesitant and loses it quickly, I am only heeling a few metres Should I start really small, 100 pecs style? Hmmmm.... Sorry for this being long, thinking out loud and spend most of my day at work thinking about training methods for home Edited January 4, 2007 by shoemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Try a dog who doesn't seem to like treats, and always lays down Sorry no help Bel, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Stubborn dog eh?? What is a stubborn dog, LOL, I dislike human descriptions related to dogs. To be a good trainer, we (I include myself) need to learn to read our dogs better. We all hear dogs do what works for them. We cannot expect a dog to do what it has not been taught. Back to topic. Do you mean to say, EVERY time to command your dog to obey, you have bribed him with treats. Note, I feel there is a big difference between bribing and rewarding. I have all my labs in the house at the moment. I try to be consistent at all times. Sit means sit. Basic obedience. This morning, for example, I forgot I left one of my dogs on a sit, remembered 20 minutes later.......dog was still sitting. Where once if the phone rang, and I was distracted, this particular dog would wander and I WOULD ALLOW it. Bad inconsistent person I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 The only reason I use a human description is because that is how it looks, I am not an expert, if I were i wouldn't be asking for opinions, I would already have all the answers If someone gave me a dog-human translator I'd give you the dog term for what he is doing! Yes there is a huge difference between bribing and rewarding, that is what I am asking for help with, now that I've trained the wrong thing (bribe), how do I train the right thing (reward) He will not always refusing the command, I guess he is choosing whether or not to obey, because of my own mistakes, which I know were mistakes now, So now that I've taught him that he once had the choice how do I now teach him there is no choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Goodness, sorry if I sounded abrupt!!! I phase out rewards, still expecting high standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 So abrupt to vague Don't worry about it then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Shoemonster,sorry, if I seem to be flippant. I do not mean to do so. Start by rewarding for only excellent responses. Again I apologise, but have not observed your dog. Most of my dogs mistakes, and they do make mistakes, heck humans make mistakes, are due to MY training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 Yeah I know his mistakes are due to me teaching him that they are ok to do It is much different with Molly, I guess cos by the time we got her I had learnt more about trainig so my attitude to it was different, also she is a very different personality of dog, much more energetic Eddie confuses me as he can be very dominant with some things but very submissive with others I don't mean to try to get instant answers over the net, I know its hard without seeing him, I guess it's just I sit here at work and think about it, so this is the most I can do to fix it while Im here lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Hi Shoey RElax grasshopper eddie has a long way to go he is going through a lot of changes at present and with the implant wearing off he has probabaly had a durge of hormones he is also becoming a grwon up and will test the waters. Its time to set up a trianing schedule pick three things he knows well to work on at home no new things not play stuff and start askign for them in various spots at home and have no treats in site sometimes click and get a treat others just a good boy off you go to play Remeer the article i gave you on motivatio vs reward and the story ii told you about the highly trianed dog that only listened to the person with the red treat box. Its easy to have happen. start with sit drop and going to heel. Also continue wit the putting food up and then asking him to come give you eye contact before getting to get it then a pace of heeling then two. Nor unlike drive trianing he needs to learn to comply before he gets his reward and if you always have abumbag ful of treats he knows when he has to listen and when not. Ask for sit if he ignores you walk of give him ten seconds to comply if he does make a huge fuss and go get a treat. also start thinking about manners when you are out demand respect if hes going to ignore you then put him back on back on lead no pulling if it takes half an hour to get from car to park tough walking nicely is expected. time to tighten his apron strings until he starts to listen and respect your wishes. You dont have to be mean or tough just consistent with him. Leave the free shaping and tricks for now and focus on control exercises until he will listen no matter what all the time Eddie is a good dog and your doign fine jus hang in there a bit longer and you'll start to see the light at the end of the tunnel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Motivate with something other than food? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 Thanks Stella I will do those things, I had been talking to Kerry about his off lead manners yesterday too! lol I've been so soft with him, it's all coming out now! The implant wearing off is probably why I'm noticing it so much more lately WS, only thing he is motivated by other than food is a tennis ball, I have started using that occasionally, and I've also ordered an orbee from k9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Yeah I know his mistakes are due to me teaching him that they are ok to doIt is much different with Molly, I guess cos by the time we got her I had learnt more about trainig so my attitude to it was different, also she is a very different personality of dog, much more energetic Eddie confuses me as he can be very dominant with some things but very submissive with others I don't mean to try to get instant answers over the net, I know its hard without seeing him, I guess it's just I sit here at work and think about it, so this is the most I can do to fix it while Im here lol Shoemonster, I think of myself as a fairly well informed dog trainer. Am I a good trainer. Sometimes LOL. I think I am very fair to my dogs. This includes corrections, which I use. Lack of effort of an educated dogs, irks me no end, but I think I am educated enough to see the difference between lack of effort and the dog not being well conditioned/trained (to what I require). Am I an excellent dog trainer No. Your line "Yeah, I know his mistakes are due to me teaching him that they are ok to do", certainly rings, a bell, for a lot of us. I am going off topic. But bear with me, recently I had the delight of training with one of the best, if not the best, successful US amateur trainer. A judge, had set up a high standard test, which was to be used for All Age dogs (dogs in the highest level of retriever competition), which could be broken down for the mid level dogs, (restricted dogs), and one part of the test to Novice dogs. I took one of my novice dogs, down to be run/trained. The test was what we call a cheaty water run, across a river, with high banks, and many fallen trees. The trainer looked at me and said No, you are not running that dog. I was aghast. This dog is not a cheater (will face water and cover well) This dog had just two weeks ago won its novice test, and the "trial" test was harder than this training test. The trainer explained to me later, that sure I would have taught my dog one of two good things, but also taught it possibly 5 bad habits. (as this particular dog is not educated enough to handle (cast, stop on the whistle, not cheat the shoreline) well, with arm and whistle control. I learnt a lot that day. I hold my head to shame, thinking of my past errors. And this is only one example. She picked on the so called DOL wonder dog Stamp too. He has improved also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 (edited) I have so much to learn, and everytime I learn more I think about how I could have done previous things differently! I guess thats the good thing about them, there's always more to learn Edited January 4, 2007 by shoemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 shoey ive been doign this 20 years and am still learning with every new dog trianign a dog is a bit like playign with a yoyo you let them out then bring them back and let them out again until they listen in all circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 shoey ive been doign this 20 years and am still learning with every new dog trianign a dog is a bit like playign with a yoyo you let them out then bring them back and let them out again until they listen in all circumstances That is for sure. I am currently training 4 of my dogs. Plus a few others, with only obedience trial requirements. I wish I had never found retriever trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 I didn't think of it that way, like a yoyo, I guess I was thinking of it as train them in, and then they should be fine out, I've been looking at it the worng way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 Could you explain further SM, and other poster, what you mean by yoyo? Remember there is always someone heavier. Balance IN TRAINING (what I understand as being a yoyo), is a frequently used word in retriever training, handling (most used for hidden retrieves -sitting to the whistle, casting our arm casts, left, right, angled lefts/rights, Backs) UNDER CONTROL OF THE HANDLER and the other balance is marking, where the dog needs to be relaxed to find and "hunt" the bird which will eventually include multiple marks. Balance for obedience, as Pauline Hanson, famously said, please explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 umm you dont just teach move forward and then forget about it you go back and forth slowly building as you go yoyoing between a earlier level in a harder situation and harder level in an easier on two steps forward one step back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 umm you dont just teach move forward and then forget about it you go back and forth slowly building as you go yoyoing between a earlier level in a harder situation and harder level in an easier on two steps forward one step back Just so I am clear, give me a few examples. If you have time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted January 4, 2007 Author Share Posted January 4, 2007 Very basic eg, with recall, teaching under low distraction, before taking the dog out to higher distraction Then coming back and doing more reinforcing stuff for recall under low distraction again Stella, correct me if I'm wrong, which I could be lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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