They're Always *starving*!

[dougie]

Dougie raw egg whites have two issues:

1. They contain an enzyme inhibitor which can make them difficult to digest for a very young puppy or a sick or old dog or a dog with pancreas issues.

2. They contain Avidin which binds with biotin making it unavailable to the dog's digestive system. Apparently, you need a diet seriously deficient in biotin and to feed a lot of raw egg white for this to be a problem.

Raw egg yolks are very rich in biotin. Billinghurt's view is that you'd need to feed a very poor quality dried dog food (which is frequently deficient in biotin) and lots of raw egg whites on their own to create a problem.

I just always feed whole raw eggs - my dogs would get them in their veggie mix 2-3 timer a week. No hair loss here!

we have a couple of grape vines in the garden, & ours will, & do, eat the grapes straight of vine if don't watch them....safe this year because the kangaroos have eaten them all.

mine have also snitched chocky biscuits off the outside setting, ditto peanuts, chocky bars dropped the grandies etc etc......we haven't had a problem....yet.

some dogs could have a very bad reaction to eating any of the above. ours haven't.

for me to deny there was a problem with dogs eating grapes, chockies, peanuts would irresonsible.

just because mine have'nt had a reaction doesn't mean others won't.

most people who jump out of planes with a parachute land safely....but they know the risk.....

same here, know the risk.....make up your own mind.

[arby]

Raw WHOLE eggs are fine though Dougie!

WHOLE eggs do have the whites.....don't they?....... it's the raw whites that can cousre problems.

A then of course there is the chance of salmonella contamination.....especially with goose eggs.

the idea is that the egg yolk cancels out the effects of the egg whites.

lets get over this egg debate crap. Thats not the topic on this thread.

[Toohey]

I feed raw whole eggs twice a week, shells and all without ever a problem, but that's not what this thread is about, so perhaps start another one to discuss eggs?

[arby]

I feed raw whole eggs twice a week, shells and all without ever a problem, but that's not what this thread is about, so perhaps start another one to discuss eggs?

the eggs topic has been done and killed so many times.

We all should get back on topic here.

Ahaze just wondering how big are your pups now???

[poodlefan]

Billinghurst has written a book specifically on puppy raising.

It's called Grow Your Pups with Bones.

[bloss344]

Isn't Farrell's kibble, just a mixer with no actual animal protein in it? From memory I think it's designed to be fed with meat. Coleby suggests feeding a very small amount of meat something like 10% of the diet. Not good for any dog but horrific for puppies. Although her book covers dogs, cats, rabbits and gp's her main expertise is goats. The other supplements in this diet are also too hit and miss for my liking.

There are a lot of very good puppy foods on the market that are balanced for the critical growth time of puppies.

[ahaze]

Thank you all for the strong opinions, I can see that they vary as much here as at any other forum.

I find it interesting that rice and carbs are rejected in these responses, but at least one variety of Nutro (recommended in this thread) contains rice, rice flour and rice bran (See here: http://naturalpetfoodsaustralia.com/analysis-dogs.html)

Ian Billinghurst's website indicates that the dog is an omnivore... the diet can be based on a wider range of whole raw foods of both animal and plant origin, and that they should be given more vegetables than cats... vegetables which of course contain carbs.

And as for the chemical worming... how on earth did dogs survive in the days before people stuffed them with pills??

Please understand I don't mean any of this to be critical of any of you personally, just as I'm sure you didn't intend for me to take your responses to my choices personally. As I said, it would appear there is a great deal of opinion to wade through (as evidenced by the egg debate) and it comes down to each person doing what they think is best. Pat Coleby obviously has her detractors but there is a large contingent of natural farmers, graziers and animal owners who believe her books on natural farming, natural livestock care and natural pet care are the best thing that ever happened to them. Perhaps reading an entire Coleby book to understand more of her method and philosophy, rather than taking quotes here and there out of context and dismissing the entire thing out of hand, would be appropriate. And yes, I would like to read more Billinghurst, as well as other natural methods.

As an answer to a question in this thread, we gave them meaty lamb bones in the first couple weeks we had them and they had runny bowel movements and were up at night vomiting. We've backed off on those though still give them occasionally. While at a neighbour's house they were given chicken necks and they were similarly sick and also lethargic all the next day. I don't take either of these things to mean that bones and chicken necks are out of the question, as of course there are a number of variables that could cause these problems - including the unfamiliar surroundings, new people, stress, etc. However, their bowel movements, activity level, water consumption, etc has been *stable* while eating primarily kibble - I take that as a good sign.

As to the answer to my original question as to how MUCH to feed Rhythm and Blues, I guess I'll keep searching and experimenting.

Thanks all for your input.

[dougie]

the idea is that the egg yolk cancels out the effects of the egg whites.

actually a good kibble has sufficient biotin content anyhow.

dogs can happily survive on a good brand kibble......& many do.

if one thing negates the other it would seem like a woftam including it in the diet......don'tcha think?......

feed your puppies the amount recommend by the manufacturer.

......you can assess the puppies progress & vary amounts as you think necessary.

[Jed]

arby

the eggs topic has been done and killed so many times.

True, but a lot of new posters haven't read anything previously, and if incorrect information is not corrected, they then they can are left with the wrong information. Eggs are a very good source of protein, recommended by animal nutritionists, and fed whole raw by many owners and breeders.

[poodlefan]

Ahaze:

And as for the chemical worming... how on earth did dogs survive in the days before people stuffed them with pills??

Quite simply... some of them didn't. A good worm burden still kills many a puppy when wormng regimes are neglected. Companion animals also live longer than their wild cousins.

Yep, you are bang on about people holding strong views about feeding regimes. However, feeding pups should be done cautiously.. get it wrong with a puppy and you may end up with life long complications.

I "stuff my dogs with pills" as you put it once every three months. Sure beats them having worms... and passing tapeworms on to me. Ask your farming friends about THAT risk. My dogs are also vaccinated.

ETA. Yep Billinghurst says dogs are ominvores but he does not advocate the feeding of cereals at all. The basis of canine diet is still animal proteins too. A bit more research on the dogs digestive system might help you to understnand why a cereal based diet is problematic for many dogs.

Many pups react adversely to new food in their diet... add a little and create variety (that's import in any diet) Lamb is too fatty for many dogs - try some beef bones.

Edited January 4, 2007 by poodlefan

[Toohey]

the eggs topic has been done and killed so many times.

No, still heaps of life in it, according this topic anyway.

Ahaze, can you tell us what is the main ingredients in the farrells' kibble?

Keep reading, there is heaps of info out there and it usually just a matter of working out what is best for your dogs. I'd try different bones or persevere with what you have tried before... might take them a while to get used to them after such a concentrated carbo diet.

They really are important for many reasons, and if you want to feed a natural diet, it is common sense they should be large part of that

Edited January 4, 2007 by Toohey

[Miranda]

If you live in a country area and there is any chance whatsoever that your dogs could get access to raw offal then you MUST worm your dogs for hydatid tapeworm, if your dogs become infected they can pass it on to humans and hydatid cysts can be fatal in some cases. Also please be aware that dogs carrying roundworms can pass them on to young children, it is actually very irresponsible not to worm your dogs.

[Toohey]

A little more info taken from HERE

Is my dog experiencing detox?

When switching a dog over from commercial dog food to BARF, the dog's body may begin the process of ridding itself of toxins and impurities as it adjusts to the intake of proper nutrients. This process is called detox. Depending on the overall health of your dog, detox may last one week, one month or even several weeks...or not even at all. The most common symptoms of detox include vomiting, diarrhea, bad breath and itchy skin. It is normal for any of these detox symptoms to get worse before they get better...just don't give up and hang in there. Keep your dog as comfortable as possible during this process. Go slow on introducing new foods, to make sure there are no allergies. Pure pumpkin in the can (not pumpkin pie filling) works magic to firm stools quickly. Provide plenty of fresh water, but limit excessive water intake immediately after meals, as your dog may regurgitate. Give plenty of Vitamin E and C (the C to bowel tolerance) to help boost his/her immune system.

Pat Coleby obviously has her detractors but there is a large contingent of natural farmers, graziers and animal owners who believe her books on natural farming, natural livestock care and natural pet care are the best thing that ever happened to them. Perhaps reading an entire Coleby book to understand more of her method and philosophy, rather than taking quotes here and there out of context and dismissing the entire thing out of hand, would be appropriate

Sorry, I had to type those quotes myself so was unable to quote full paragraphs, but the fact is that what she is saying in these quotes is fundamentally wrong.

How can a puppy grow properly, (and they grow so quickly too,) when they are not fed primarily proteins? Isn't that basic common sense?

Edited January 4, 2007 by Toohey

[arby]

Ahaze in regards to the meaty lamb bones.

Alot of people I know have found these to be very rich so given to pups they can cause the whole diarrhea (sp?) and such. So best to introduce slowly and mixed with other good food. I know for sure that they gave our boxer some extremely bad gas!!!

I dont think people dismiss carbs its more of the balance between carbs protein and fat in the diet. We personally feed alot of fresh meat (roo, chicken, offal) and around 3 days a week we add carbs such as rice or pasta to the diet along with veggies. other days we add sardines, oils, eggs, yoghurt, calcium powder (he's 18 months but still growing) and of course bones.

The result is quite impressive. We got a very healthy and extremely quick growing boxer!!! When we were away and he got fed commercial food only (good quality kibble included) we found that he's overall look and health deterioated a bit. Back on the BARF diet and he gained significant weight, coat was shinny and he didnt smell as bad. So must be doing something right.

[poodlefan]

Arby provided your dog receives plenty of raw meaty bones, he shouldn't need calcium powder. Too much calcium can be as harmful as too little.

The aim of the BARF diet is to grow a dog SLOWLY.. less bone and joint issues that way. BARF fed puppies are often smaller for their age than commercially fed puppies but grow for longer.

[arby]

Arby provided your dog receives plenty of raw meaty bones, he shouldn't need calcium powder. Too much calcium can be as harmful as too little.

I know in most cases its not advisable for the extra supplement.

we only feed it twice a week or so on advice of both breeder and vet.

Humphrey has always been on the BARF diet and at 18months he's actually really skinny yet he's already bigger then the breed standard!!! He's going to be a huge dog

[ahaze]

For those asking about the ingredients in Farrells:

wholegrain cereal(s), meat by-products derived from beef and/or sheep and/or poultry and/or pork and salt.

Crude protein 12%, crude fibre 5%, crude fat 3%, salt 1%

It does indicate "oven baked to blend well with meats, canned food, or moistened with gravy, water or milk. Can be used with vitamins and mineral supplements." Pat Coleby says she gives her dogs raw goats milk with the kibble, supplements, and a tablespoon of whatever she eats.

It recommends 170g-230g for large breeds and 120g from small breeds.

Regarding eggs, Coleby says "Whole raw eggs can occasionally be added to the diet, but to much raw egg white inhibits trypsin in the gut and is not a good idea. Raw yolk on the other hand is good and could be mixed in puppy and kitten meals once or twice a week. Chopped hard boiled eggs can also be used occasionally."

She also notes, "All of the above (referring to meat, bones, fish, cheese, milk/yogurt and eggs), are first class proteins and should not really exceed 5% of the diet for a pet, or 10% for a working dog."

I would guess many of you will say this is all flat out wrong. Is there a chance that it could be a bit wrong and you could be a bit wrong too? What is "healthy" in a human diet has seen many fads come and go: no fat, then no protein, then no carbs.... and I think what it has come down to is that a balance is what is needed. Is it possible that the same can be said for animal diets?

I won't recount the entire Coleby passage on worms and their prevention with copper and sulphur. But she indicates that if dogs are getting these in proper amounts to begin with, worms will never be a problem. Much of her philosophy revolves around making sure the animal has the right vitamins and minerals in the first place so these problems never appear (thus, we give them the copper and sulphur even though we've never had a problem with fleas or worms - prevention rather than treatment).

If vets (and human doctors) tell us that the only way to be healthy is by taking medication (as opposed to taking the right vitamins and minerals) and we don't do further research, of course we're going to believe that a medication is the only way to be healthy. But have you read up on the benefits and purposes of sulphur and copper in diet? Do you even know how much sulphur and copper your animal is getting in its diet? If not, how can you state unequivocally that they *must* have a chemical wormer?

As stated directly by me and indirectly by me and many others in this thread, I am completely new at this and by no means an expert. But there's a lot of information available out there by knowledgeable and authoritative sources ranging from vets to pet medication manufacturers to Coleby to Billinghurst. I think it all deserves to be weighed.

Incidentally, what does Billinghurst say about worms, anyone?

[poodlefan]

From Billinghurst's Give Your Dog a Bone:

Kangaroo and pig hunters, farmers and anyone who feeds suspect offal to their dogs should worm their dogs with Praziquantal (eg. Droncit or Drontal) every six weeks.

He also mentions that anyone who allows their dogs to roam in bushland should adopt a similar regime.

Other precautions include to feed only human grade raw meat and offal to dogs.

ETA he says that dogs that get out into forests/bushlands are at constant risk from Hydatids... as are their human families if the dogs are not wormed.

Edited January 4, 2007 by poodlefan

[Jed]

Hi, Ahaze. Welcome to the forum. I have read Pat Coleby's books - dog and horse (coz I bred horses for about 100 years too), and there is a lot of good in them.

I feed my dogs a "natural" diet, and will try to fix things by natural means if possible. I have fed quite a few different things over the years, including Farrells. It is also beloved by numerous greyhound owners. However, it is largely cereal - and whilst I think it is ok as an adjunct to other foods, I don't think it has the necessary nutrients, or is high enough in protein to make up the greater proportion of the dogs diet. The dog is a straight out carnivore, which means that he was designed to live on meat - certainly other things as well - but he is a carnivore.

There are hundreds of thousands of dogs out there eating, and enjoying cans of Pal, as a staple diet. Without appearing to be suffering in any way. The people who are feeding those dogs do believe they are doing the right thing by their dog, and would not accept any arguments to the contrary. Yet people who have studied nutrition in dogs faint dead away on hearing about dogs living on Pal (me too!!)

You seem interested in giving your dogs the best start possible. May I suggest you do some research on other feeding methods - there is plenty of information out there. Don't just accept one point of view.

If you do research, be aware that on websites, it is possible for anyone to put anything, so ensure that the information is sourced, not someone's opinion. Books are probably better, because one would hope they are checked for veracity prior to publication.

Pat Coleby is not big into dogs, and as far as I know, not a breeder. I personally feel that her books on horses are better, and indeed some of the things she suggests are in fact, tried and true remedies which have been used for over 100 years.

However, some of the advice she gives - particularly on snakebite - worries me a bit -- the dogs who survived snake bite without vet assistance may have received a dry bite, or a minimal dose of venom. Most dogs, without anti venene, will die.

The other prolematic thing in her writings concerns Vit C. She fails to mention that it is possible to overdose dogs on Vit C, and poison them. Certainly, it would need to be a big dose, or far too much over a period, but they cannot excrete all the excess.

Also the advice re raw eggs .... that the whites were harmful is "old" advice, which has been superceded by further study.

Unfortunately, the most research on dog nutrition has been done by dog food companies, who have a vested interest in selling their food!! So there is not much scientific evidence around, but there is some - from here and there.

[Miranda]

For those asking about the ingredients in Farrells:

wholegrain cereal(s), meat by-products derived from beef and/or sheep and/or poultry and/or pork and salt.

Crude protein 12%, crude fibre 5%, crude fat 3%, salt 1%

It does indicate "oven baked to blend well with meats, canned food, or moistened with gravy, water or milk. Can be used with vitamins and mineral supplements." Pat Coleby says she gives her dogs raw goats milk with the kibble, supplements, and a tablespoon of whatever she eats.

It recommends 170g-230g for large breeds and 120g from small breeds.

Regarding eggs, Coleby says "Whole raw eggs can occasionally be added to the diet, but to much raw egg white inhibits trypsin in the gut and is not a good idea. Raw yolk on the other hand is good and could be mixed in puppy and kitten meals once or twice a week. Chopped hard boiled eggs can also be used occasionally."

She also notes, "All of the above (referring to meat, bones, fish, cheese, milk/yogurt and eggs), are first class proteins and should not really exceed 5% of the diet for a pet, or 10% for a working dog."

I would guess many of you will say this is all flat out wrong. Is there a chance that it could be a bit wrong and you could be a bit wrong too? What is "healthy" in a human diet has seen many fads come and go: no fat, then no protein, then no carbs.... and I think what it has come down to is that a balance is what is needed. Is it possible that the same can be said for animal diets?

I won't recount the entire Coleby passage on worms and their prevention with copper and sulphur. But she indicates that if dogs are getting these in proper amounts to begin with, worms will never be a problem. Much of her philosophy revolves around making sure the animal has the right vitamins and minerals in the first place so these problems never appear (thus, we give them the copper and sulphur even though we've never had a problem with fleas or worms - prevention rather than treatment).

If vets (and human doctors) tell us that the only way to be healthy is by taking medication (as opposed to taking the right vitamins and minerals) and we don't do further research, of course we're going to believe that a medication is the only way to be healthy. But have you read up on the benefits and purposes of sulphur and copper in diet? Do you even know how much sulphur and copper your animal is getting in its diet? If not, how can you state unequivocally that they *must* have a chemical wormer?

As stated directly by me and indirectly by me and many others in this thread, I am completely new at this and by no means an expert. But there's a lot of information available out there by knowledgeable and authoritative sources ranging from vets to pet medication manufacturers to Coleby to Billinghurst. I think it all deserves to be weighed.

Incidentally, what does Billinghurst say about worms, anyone?

Ahaze you are perfectly entitled to feed your dogs whatever you like, IMO Farrell's kibble is far too low in protein and fat but if you wish to continue feeding it that's up to you, your dogs will survive on it, whether they'll be in optimum health and condition is another matter entirely.

Regarding worms, puppies are born with roundworms, I'm not going to go into the lifecycle of the roundworm, but I suggest you read up on it. Copper and sulphur will not prevent your dog from picking up worms even if they are fed in the 'proper amounts' and may I ask what are the proper amounts, from what you say you're feeding 'a pinch', how many mgs are in 'a pinch'? Minerals need to be balanced, too much of one will prevent absorption of another, by giving 'pinches' of this and that you could be hindering your dogs' ability to absorb what they need.

I am a very health conscious person, I'm a vegetarian so I have to pretty knowledgeable about nutrition and I am very careful about what I put into my body and I am just as careful with my dogs, believe me chemicals are kept to the barest minimum in this household. However I still worm my dogs regularly, much as I dislike chemicals it's the only thing to do if you're a responsible dog owner.

Regarding the Coleby book I don't agree with any of it and no I don't think I'm 'a little bit wrong', I've had dogs for over 35 years and in my very humble opinion this book reeks of quackery and the woman sounds like a crank. Maybe she's an authority on horses, goats or whatever but she knows very little about dogs.

No offence intended, but I care very deeply about dogs and the sort of rubbish this woman is spouting really gets to me.