They're Always *starving*!

[ahaze]

My husband and I are completely new at raising pups- we're learning lots from various sources online, but a lot of the info is conflicting: like how much to feed them! Some places say as much as they can eat in 10 minutes, some say follow the back of the dog food bag, some say do anything *but* follow the back of the dog food bag! Another source says to just look at them to see if they're eating enough or too much.

We feed them three times a day for now, with the intention of cutting back to twice a day at 6 months. We feed them on Farrell's Kibble, as recommended by Pat Coleby in her book "Natural Pet Care" (we give them about 1/2 cup 3x daily), and they get a few extras - occasional natural yogurt with breakfast, Kong balls at lunch stuffed with peanut butter, rice, eggs, bits of meat - and occasionally we can slip vegies and things into their kibble and they eat it, though they aren't interested in them at all if they are alone. The girls also supplement their meals with rocks, sticks, dirt, roo poo....

We are trying to follow Coleby as much as possible in terms of supplements. We give them a pinch of sulphur each day for external parasites (fleas, ticks, etc), have a bit of copper pipe in their water each day for everything from iron absorption to worming, half teaspoon of dolomite twice a week for calcium and magnesium, and a pinch of kelp powder a week for iodine and trace minerals, and occasionally apple cider vinegar in the water too.

They're just over 15 weeks old and about 9.5Kg each. They both have plenty of energy, of course. We give them about 10 minutes of training each morning, and they get several leashed walks/runs around our 20 acre property each day, and they spend a lot of time in their dog run wrestling with each other, so they are getting good exercise.

The problem is, they always act like they're starving! This morning as a test, we doubled the size of their morning meal and they both ate it all- they slowed down near the end but they did finish, licked the bowl clean and searched for more. If we were to free feed them there is no doubt they'd over eat. We've read that they should always be a little hungry so as to be more receptive to training with treats- but sometimes they act starved to distraction, particularly Rhythm.

So how much is enough food?? Thanks in advance for your input!!

[Miranda]

Farrell's kibble is not a good food, it has too many fillers and is certainly not suitable for growing puppies, the cheaper the food the more you'll have to feed. I would purchase a good super premium food such as Royal Canin, Eagle Pack or Nutro or if they're not available in your area Advance is quite acceptable. Don't bother giving them rice, a dog's GI tract isn't designed to process carbohydrates efficiently and all you'll end up with is more poo. At one meal give them some raw chicken wings, necks or frames and some brisket bones once or twice a week will help to clean their teeth. Yoghurt and a raw egg now and again is fine as is the ACV.

If you feed a good diet all the supplements you are feeding are totally unnecessary and feeding too much calcium can be dangerous. I would also buy some Drontal All Wormer cubes and worm them properly and if they've got any fleas use Advantage once a month.

Also too much exercise at an early age can be harmful to growing bones, joints and ligaments especially if they're a large breed of dog, overexercising can be a contributing factor in HD and OCD.

[HOGWARTZBOXERS]

Spot on Miranda.

[Miranda]

I'm posting again because reading back over my original post I feel that it sounds a little abrupt and I certainly didn't mean to offend you. However the diet you are feeding is inadequate, your pups are constantly starving because the food you are feeding lacks protein and nutrients. I doubt that your babies could physically consume enough Farrell's to satisfy their needs as Farrell's is one of the cheapest foods available and has a very high cereal content. Also if your puppies have had fleas it is highly likely that they have tapeworm and sulphur and copper pipes certainly won't kill tapeworm or any other worms for that matter.

I don't know of the Coleby book but frankly it sounds as if it was written in the middle of the last century, a diet consisting of poor quality kibble, a few scraps and 'a pinch of this and that' just isn't good enough and could cause lasting damage to a growing puppy.

Just my opinion anyway

[HOGWARTZBOXERS]

I dont think you were out of line or abrupt Miranda, I dont think the op would have found that either, Ahaze has said they were new to puppies and the information you gave was what I was thinking also, not all of these alturnate supplyments work and for newbies raising new puppies I think they should be aware of the pitfalls and given the advise from others they are then able to make up their own minds, but i agree that that is probably why" they are always starving". Hog

Edited January 3, 2007 by HOGWARTZBOXERS

[poodlefan]

The best way to know if your pups are getting enough food is to feel them. You should be able to feel rib without pressing hard. Weight alone means very little.

I agree with Miranda - the diet does sound deficient. If you don't want to go the kibble route, there is always a well balanced raw diet.

If your dogs have access to roo poo and carrion you need to use a proper CHEMICAL wormer such as Drontal.

Edited January 3, 2007 by poodlefan

[dougie]

Farrell's kibble is not a good food, it has too many fillers and is certainly not suitable for growing puppies, the cheaper the food the more you'll have to feed. I would purchase a good super premium food such as Royal Canin, Eagle Pack or Nutro or if they're not available in your area Advance is quite acceptable. Don't bother giving them rice, a dog's GI tract isn't designed to process carbohydrates efficiently and all you'll end up with is more poo. At one meal give them some raw chicken wings, necks or frames and some brisket bones once or twice a week will help to clean their teeth. Yoghurt and a raw egg now and again is fine as is the ACV.

If you feed a good diet all the supplements you are feeding are totally unnecessary and feeding too much calcium can be dangerous. I would also buy some Drontal All Wormer cubes and worm them properly and if they've got any fleas use Advantage once a month.

Also too much exercise at an early age can be harmful to growing bones, joints and ligaments especially if they're a large breed of dog, overexercising can be a contributing factor in HD and OCD.

as good advice as one could give.....

except the bit about raw egg....

don't feed dogs raw eggs....hard boil them & mash them up....shell & all.

Edited January 3, 2007 by dougie

[Toohey]

I have a copy of "Natural pet Care" by Pat Coleby, and just pulled it out to read the diet chapter. It's got some ideas which are very outdated and very different form Billinghurst. I bought the book originally for her ideas on natural health care, and did not really follow the dietary advice. Fortunately for my dogs i think..

Here are some excerpts...

she is big on carbohydrates and fibre..

We will start with the carbohydrates, which are the bulky basis for every diet..

Farrells' kibble is formulated for the greyhound racing industry

I have kibble out permanently - it is always available on a self help basis

Most cases of ill health in dogs and cats in our affluent society are due to an oversupply of first class proteins

Technically, raw bones are safe, but unfortunately I hear of far too many cases where dogs and cats have been given them and have ended up with pierced insides, just as they do with cooked bones. So they are better avoided unless the animal is freshly killed.

The onion family is especially good-dogs very soon get used to garlic and onion in their food, and both are an excellent source of sulphur and selenium. Lately certain authorities have stated that onions will kill dogs, but mine seem to do well on them

Ahaze, do a search online for Billinghurst and BARF, or as Miranda suggeste, buy a good quality complete dry food. .

Edited January 3, 2007 by Toohey

[shoemonster]

If I left kibble out I would have 2 elephant sized staffords, they just don't stop............. ever

My 2 are nearly 18 months and they still tell me they are starving, and they are on good food and plenty of it

[Miranda]

Ahaze, do a search online for Billinghurst and BARF

Yes this is an excellent idea, Billinghurst also advocates a 'natural' diet, but he doesn't recommend large amounts of carbohydrate, I mean really, do you ever see wild dogs grazing in a wheat field? I can't say that I agree with any of the things that Toohey posted from the Coleby book and I think you'll find Billinghurst's book a much better and safer alternative.

I can appreciate that you want to avoid chemicals but unfortunately when it comes to worming your dogs it's the only way. If you have had your puppies from 8 weeks of age and have never wormed them chances are that they're carrying a substantial worm burden which can also make them very hungry and may eventually make them ill.

Good luck with your puppies

[arby]

Just a tip on basic dog behaviour.

One of their main instincts is to eat. Some breeds have this instinct a bit stronger then others.

Anyways what does this mean?

Basically the ancestors of modern dogs would go days without food. So when food was available they would stuff themselves, not knowing when the next feed would be.

Now in some dogs they will eat as much and as often as you feed them. So its up to you to actually feed good quality food, at certain times of the days. You should feed them at the same time each day (or close to) and not allow food to just lay around all day. If the food isnt eaten in 30 mins or so take it away and not feed the dog (no snacks or treats) til the next meal time. This will result in 2 things. 1. they bowel movements will become better, so you're toilet training them. 2. They will learn that they have to eat when you feed them or just go hungry.

This set up allows you to adjust meal portions and helps with controlling weight. If pups are too skinny feed more at night. If they are a bit on the heavy side feed more in the morning then at night.

Pups should be getting fed 3 times a day.

[KOE]

Colby writes a great book on horses and yes copper in the water

[Jed]

don't feed dogs raw eggs....hard boil them & mash them up....shell & all.

Out of step with all the research - raw eggs + shells are fine. No need to boil them. Wouldn't mind seeing your reference about boiling them!!

[arby]

don't feed dogs raw eggs....hard boil them & mash them up....shell & all.

Out of step with all the research - raw eggs + shells are fine. No need to boil them. Wouldn't mind seeing your reference about boiling them!!

Agree

As long as you give whole egg (both yolk and white) then you can feed raw. Hell after all you dont see wild dogs take out the camping stove and boil the eggs they find in the wild before they eat them.

My boys get 3-4 eggs a week and never had a problem. Our mutt Taz just gets the whole eggs he loves to play with it before he cracks it open himself. Its one of his fav treats. Some days he'll eat the shell other days he wont. He also gets the occasional quail egg from our avairy.

[Steve]

Good advice Miranda .Raw eggs are good Dougie .If you cook them you chemically change the amino acids ,they are still there but different and harder for a DOG to digest .

These quotes that Miranda posted from this book were some of the worst advice Ive ever seen about how to feed a puppy and personally Id go after Billinghurst's Give your Dog a Bone or Tom Lonsdale's Raw Meaty Bones .

[dougie]

raw egg whites restrict the absorbtion of biotin....vitamin B.......this can result in dermatitis, hair loss & poor coats & is thought to to be detrimentral to the nervious system

an occassion raw egg is not considered to be too bad but regular inclusion in the diet is definately not reccommended.

do a google.....see for yourself.

[poodlefan]

Raw WHOLE eggs are fine though Dougie!

[dougie]

Raw WHOLE eggs are fine though Dougie!

WHOLE eggs do have the whites.....don't they?....... it's the raw whites that can cousre problems.

A then of course there is the chance of salmonella contamination.....especially with goose eggs.

[poodlefan]

Dougie raw egg whites have two issues:

1. They contain an enzyme inhibitor which can make them difficult to digest for a very young puppy or a sick or old dog or a dog with pancreas issues.

2. They contain Avidin which binds with biotin making it unavailable to the dog's digestive system. Apparently, you need a diet seriously deficient in biotin and to feed a lot of raw egg white for this to be a problem.

Raw egg yolks are very rich in biotin. Billinghurt's view is that you'd need to feed a very poor quality dried dog food (which is frequently deficient in biotin) and lots of raw egg whites on their own to create a problem.

I just always feed whole raw eggs - my dogs would get them in their veggie mix 2-3 timer a week. No hair loss here!

[Toohey]

We feed them on Farrell's Kibble, as recommended by Pat Coleby in her book "Natural Pet Care" (we give them about 1/2 cup 3x daily), and they get a few extras - occasional natural yogurt with breakfast, Kong balls at lunch stuffed with peanut butter, rice, eggs, bits of meat - and occasionally we can slip vegies and things into their kibble

Ahaze, do you feed any meaty bones at all? How much protein are your dogs getting? According to the Billinghurst BARF diet, 60-70 percent of their diet should be raw meaty bones... Such as chicken necks/wings/frames, and lamb necks, chuck bones, brisket bones and an occasional recreational marrow bone would go a long way to stave off "starving dogs"? Although, many dogs will tell you they are starving, even after dinner!

One more question, can you tell us the ingredients of the farrells kibble?

I really would not follow that diet at all, the things quoted there are quite concerning... dogs need protein, they need bones, they do not need many carbs, and please never feed onion. It can cause anaemia.