He Took My Bone Away!

[bret]

HI all,

Maiya and i are getting very close now, it seems anyway. Today i gave her a juicy bone with meat and marrow and all sorts of good stuff oozing out of it. I have read so many different things on dog agression, and pack leadership and the sorts and sometimes things just like to confuse themselves. I want to know more opinions on the outcome of todays test.

previously when i fed maiya and moved near her bowl, she growled and wouldn't let me near her, to fix this i was told to have 2 or 3 treats that are better than her food ie: chicken necks and offer them during her meal, and while that happens pat her. I did this and the growling stopped and she came instantly. I have since stopped doing that because on of the many things i have read about says 'leave your dog alone when they eat, you wouldn't like someone coming up and patting and distracting you when you eat,' so i did. today i moved over when i was cleaning up the poo in the yard, i got close to her she growled. i moved closer again she growled louder. She has never tried to bite me, and the truth be told i never thought she was even close today, her growl wasn't that nasty super deep growl that you hear with a vicious dog, she was just letting me know i guess she was uncomfortable. I corrected her with my voice and a tug on her flat collar and took the bone. i moved it away about 3 feet and put it down and told her to stay. after 2 or three minutes i gave her the 'ok' and she went and merrily started to chomp.

I then went up to her, she didn't growl, i gave the 'out' command and a little reluctantly she gave up the bone, which she was rewarded for and praise and stuff, then left her to finish it.

i guess my question is, when it comes to trust and loyalty, should your dog ever feel like maiya did today about her owner? and if not, what other things can i do to unequivacably make her know that i am a) pack leader and b) that i would do anything for her.

does that make sense?

cheers

bret

[shekhina]

I would NEVER let one of my dogs get away with that kind of behaviour...they just wouldn't even dare for fear of hearing mum's growly voice

My dogs are also taught to back away from their food if one of the cats happen to come up to their food (normally the cats are locked away while the dogs eat).

Get straight back into taking her food/toys off her reguarly and rewarding her when she gives them up without a fuss.

I don't care what anyone says, if I want to put my hand near my dogs' bowls they better stop eating and back off or else I will make them. I'm the boss and I'll do whatever I want and they will be OK with it or else

ETA: in reference to your title...you took YOUR bone away from her, it's not her bone, you are allowing her to have it. All the toys are yours all the food is yours...you are allowing her to have those things, she does NOT have right to them.

Edited January 2, 2007 by shekhina

[poodlefan]

Forget (b) ..."I would do anything for her".. that's just not dog thinking.

The behaviour your dog is displaying is resource guarding. Dogs will guard resources from other dogs, and from us in some circumstances. My understanding is that your dog does not necessarily have to see you as being below it in pack hierachy to guard... witness bitches guarding food from the alpha dog. Most dogs in my house will defend their food from each other but not from me.

Personally I think the leadership bond is far better off being established through obedience training than just over the food bowl. The more your dog learns to take your lead and trust that you will build your leadership status. I'll defer to behaviouralists about the resource guarding but the last thing I'd be looking to do is make a resource guarder anxious about keeping highly valued items.

Wouldn't it be easier simply to call you dog away from the bone, put her on lead, and then take it off her. It might save you some stitches and will stop your dog learning that biting means it gets to keep it's bone.

A growl is a warning... heed it. Dogs whose warnings aren't heeded are the dogs that supposedly bite "for no reason"...

It goes without saying of course that your dog should NEVER have food when there are young children in the house.

Edited January 2, 2007 by poodlefan

[huski]

I would NEVER let one of my dogs get away with that kind of behaviour...they just wouldn't even dare for fear of hearing mum's growly voice

My dogs are also taught to back away from their food if one of the cats happen to come up to their food (normally the cats are locked away while the dogs eat).

Get straight back into taking her food/toys off her reguarly and rewarding her when she gives them up without a fuss.

I don't care what anyone says, if I want to put my hand near my dogs' bowls they better stop eating and back off or else I will make them. I'm the boss and I'll do whatever I want and they will be OK with it or else

ETA: in reference to your title...you took YOUR bone away from her, it's not her bone, you are allowing her to have it. All the toys are yours all the food is yours...you are allowing her to have those things, she does NOT have right to them.

I totally agree with you, Shekhina. Our Tibbie is very food aggressive because we were always taught "if the dog is growling leave it be" and no one ever showed her that we were her leaders. She is now quite elderly and yes is can be aggressive over food, in the past she has actually bitten myself, my sister and my mum. Of course now we don't tolerate it, if she growls over a possession it gets taken away. We have been retraining her but it isn't easy. She is hugely improved now but we never made that mistake again.

When I got my Sibe I was very dilligent in making sure he was not food possessive, he wouldn't DARE growl at me over anything. I can put my hand in his food bowl when he is eating and he doesn't care if I take food out

[Bubitty]

Just putting in my 2 cents worth as well.

I've had a few general conversations with people regarding feeding my dog, bones etc and what surprises me is that almost all of them have said to me "Oh when he eats do you have to stay away from him, cuz mine get really tense when they eat and they might bite me if I touched their food."

On a conversation regarding bones one person said to me "Oh I bet you throw the bones quickly at him and run, mine get all vicious when I have bones to give them, I need to throw it at them quickly or they might bite."

I was absolutely astonished at what I heard!

I think it is quite a large problem if my dog were to growl at me over food. The Baby Bub simply doesnt care what I do while he's eating, plenty of times I poked and prodded around his food, adding things, moving the food around the bowl so he can eat it easily, he just doesnt care, when I take bones away he goves me a pleading look and starts to go through all the tricks hes been taught in the hopes of getting his bone back. I have even stopped him midway through chomping on a chicken wing and removed the wing from his mouth in order to get him to chew better, he always opens his mouth, looks very sheepish at me like "Fine mum, I'll chew it, can I have it back."

General question: DO you think food aggression is just individual to each dog? I mean to say do you think that some dogs just dont care very much whereas its a big issue to others? Or do you think its the way they have been raised and what they have been allowed to get away with? Arrgh hope I'm making sense.

[Flaves]

Hi Brett, great to hear of the progress you have made.

Barker would not even think of growling at me. NEVER!

I can do whatever i want to him and he will let me.

Mitchi on the other hand. I will not have her eating whilst there are kids around.

She will occasionally growl at us.

It is jumped on straight away. SHE WILL NOT GET AWAY WITH THIS BEHAVIOR. NOT ON AT ALL - NEVER.

I remove her food from her, i pat her whilst she eats.

I am the same as Shek and Poodlefan.

She needs to know it is NOT ok.

Good Luck.

[Miranda]

General question: DO you think food aggression is just individual to each dog? I mean to say do you think that some dogs just dont care very much whereas its a big issue to others? Or do you think its the way they have been raised and what they have been allowed to get away with? Arrgh hope I'm making sense.

I certainly believe that some dogs have a greater predisposition to food aggression than others, but how they are trained when young certainly has a lot to do with it. I have owned dogs that would definitely be food aggressive if they were allowed to get away with it and others that didn't seem to have this trait at all. I think food aggression is definitely an issue where nurture can overcome nature, it's something that can be nipped in the bud very easily if you start when the puppy is very young. BTW I'm speaking about aggression to humans here not about dogs who guard their food/bones from other dogs.

[Schnapps]

I can see where people get confused with dog aggression. I have had dogs all my life and have been guilty sometimes of letting the dog be boss. Example: When the dog was a puppy with a bone, I would 'pretend' to take her bone. It was hilarous, as she didn't growl or bite, but the little claws would wrap around the bone so I couldn't sneak off with it. Guilty as charged.

[Kavik]

Slightly OT

I was watching a program on Tasmanian Devils the other day - they all feed together with no fighting. And the test for the new carer was to go into the enclosure and feed them - by holding onto the piece of meat while they ate! And then to take the end of a piece of meat that one of the Devils had on its own. I was amazed that she was able to do this!

[SparkyTansy]

I agree with poodlefan here. I think that you should concentrate on leadership heirachy away from the dog bowl.

I am guilty also for allowing for too long my dog to assume leadership... He has never had a problem near his regular food but bones are another story... still he usually runs away rather than guarding.

We are working on it, slowly...

[shekhina]

Slightly OT

I was watching a program on Tasmanian Devils the other day - they all feed together with no fighting. And the test for the new carer was to go into the enclosure and feed them - by holding onto the piece of meat while they ate! And then to take the end of a piece of meat that one of the Devils had on its own. I was amazed that she was able to do this!

They might not fight, but once one of them has finished their piece they will start chasing another one who still has some around and around and around and around...