Muttly Posted December 25, 2006 Share Posted December 25, 2006 (edited) BC x ACD foster 12-15 months, think she has been chained, either working or failed worker. Undersocialised and been hit and hauled by collar/chain/scruff. Lots of mouthing and jumping with front legs hugging my leg. Quite an anxious girl. Wants affection but gets over-excited. I think because largely it is all new. With jumping I turn back and on third occassion give a low 'ah ah' in growly tone. This largely works now. The first couple of days giving a growly tone (very moderately) saw her leave proximity and no recall for an hour or so. Had her 6 days now and seems her confidence has increased in that she is figuring I won't beat her Just had her in repetitive sits and she would maintain while I was patting, stopped patting if she went the leg hug or jumped. Was telling her she is a good girl and she jumped and nipped my chin! Didn't break skin but it hurt. Her mouthiness is increasing not decreasing and her eyes are looking a bit wild.... Will look at using rescue remedy. She is bright and active as they come. Anyone else found mouthing increase with time, I wonder confidence but also stress that now she has more of a 'pet' report that is increasing her stress levels. I have had a lot of dogs with 'issues' and a large number of workng breeds, but there are aspects of her behaviour that I am a little floored with. Usually I see the stress levels decrease each days and I am seeing a more manic and active dog. I left her when she nipped after telling her 'bad dog'. She is ultra submissive so am not seeing it as aggression, just ill-informed bite inhibition. She will be a brilliant dog in the right hands. Edited December 30, 2006 by ARF Muttly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 25, 2006 Author Share Posted December 25, 2006 The other thing she does which is disconcerting is the Belgian type smile - full front teeth displays and chatter her jaws.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 25, 2006 Author Share Posted December 25, 2006 (edited) Girl in question Edited December 25, 2006 by ARF Muttly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 25, 2006 Share Posted December 25, 2006 Hi ARF. Apply leadership (if you aren't already). Be very strict with it. DON'T allow her to initiate contact of ANY SORT. YOU be the one who ALWAYS does this. Cloth yourself appropriately so you can ignore all except the most obnoxious of behaviours (such as gnawing your arm or leg off ). Of course, NILIF as well. Be frugal with regards to your attention towards her when you do give it. Treat everything as "matter of fact" and avoid making anything a big issue. What's she like with playing games (eg. ball games etc.)? Of course, YOU instigate play; with what toy; and when play is to end. And have her do something for you first before play starts (eg. sit). I've got a feeling you know all about the "leadership" stuff .... so no big details here, and it's all I can think of to suggest without having more information and/or without seeing her. But whatever you do do, make it as BLACK and as WHITE as you possibly can. IE If you're denying attention, make sure it is CLEAR that is what you are doing and why. So your timing on what you do and when (and for what periods in between) will be important too. On the picture I have in my mind based on the description supplied in your post, I imagine a dog who doesn't know where she fits within the 'pack' and is uncertain as to your intent and so, whilst fearful and unsure, she is exploring your leadership qualities to determine if they are there and if they can be relied upon, or if it is hers that shall reign. Hence why demonstration of YOUR leadership in absolutely no uncertain terms is what is needed, and probably what she wants to recognise. I suspect that an element of her behaviour is also 'learnt' (quite possibily accidentally) as a result of treatment in her prior home. Thank heavens you now have her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 25, 2006 Share Posted December 25, 2006 The other thing she does which is disconcerting is the Belgian type smile - full front teeth displays and chatter her jaws.... Chattering jaws can be a sign of lack of confidence. Is there any lip curl, lip wrinkle and/or nose wrinkle with the show of the front teeth? From this description, difficult to determine if it is a genuine 'smile' some dogs give, or if it is a form of warning. When does she tend to display this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 25, 2006 Author Share Posted December 25, 2006 Thanks Erny, that is validating. I am a leadership-Nazi. But I do know in the last day or two I have been letting her explore more and me enforcing more of her limits within close proximity if that makes sense. If she starts the hugs or teeth chatter I am out of there from now rather than tussling with her around her sit. She only gets pats for sitting, and only positive attention verbally when not a loon. The teeth chattering and displays are not like I have seen for this breed type. Weird. Adds to her Hanibal Lector quality She is soooo bright and agile, leaps up to grab high limbs from a couple of trees in the backyard as she whizzes past burning off anxious energy. She needs to be working and will in time be a brilliant dog sports candidate. Because of quarantine she hasn't had a walk yet. And her recall under distraction I know will take some time so it is hard to burn up the energy she requires (and she was desexed on Wednesday). So far with toys she herds my avatar, being hairy she seems to always cop it. ACD traits of nipping legs. Otherwise in look and behaviour and temperament she is mostly a BC type girlie. Super smart and keen, but just really anxious about this yard and house lifestyle. She had indents on scruff from chain or heavy collaring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 25, 2006 Author Share Posted December 25, 2006 No lip curling, no hackle etc. More looking like the gums are dry and the lips got stuck up. She does this when she is sitting for me but wants to jump and as she approaches me looking like a loon but with tail out and usually wagging. Feels like it is frustrated excitement and a fair dose of anxiety - accompanied by strong gripping of my thigh if I let her - like she is melding into me for confidence. Yet she seems pretty good with the doggy crew, takes umbrance when she should and is generally very submissive, good at freezing and lowering to submissive posture. My third dog in rank is usually lower than 6-8 month olds when I foster them including males (strong rank drive but no skill), and she has it all over Lula. If she is anxious about me, she stays away. It seems like she is wanting to be close as possible and frustrated with the limit setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted December 25, 2006 Share Posted December 25, 2006 This sounds very familiar, the teeth chattering is interesting as my Molly does this She also is the queen of mouthing, she used to be horrible for it, but over time and us ignoring, she has gotten about 90% better She now only mouths or teeth chatters when she's really really excited, but it's taken 10 months to get there, and she very very very seldom nips us by accident, and if it happens it's when she is over excited, and she gets ignored afterwards Only big problem we have is trying to get friends and family to ignore it, and take their hands away, so hard to train people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 (edited) ARF - How long have you had this girl? ETA: The "leg hugging", whilst still risking an acceptance by you of HER leadership if not handled correctly, may be a learnt behaviour. Perhaps a behaviour exhibited in her former home in an (successful?) attempt by the dog to avoid the mis-handling she received from them? But now I'm really guessing, as insufficient history detail is available. Edited December 26, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 26, 2006 Author Share Posted December 26, 2006 Only a week today. She has been much better today and is sitting for pats without being asked. Think it is mostly excitement and lack of socialisation. Think it is smiling and she gets mouthy when excited. She had too much focus on her from me yesterday evening. Keeping it simple and briefer was working better beforehand and is again now, thanks for all the input. The leg hugging is reducing and you could be right about it being related to avoiding being hit. She had a meeting tday and behaved very well. The people have experience with working dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 She had a meeting tday and behaved very well. The people have experience with working dogs. Glad things seem to be sorting. One week is a very short time in the scheme of things (given her lifetime of mis-learning at the hands of the other owners). Patience and consistency is required for some time yet. Hope the 'meeting' proves to have earned her a new and good but stable home which is what it sounds she needs. Good luck with her and for the work you do to help these dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 Usually I see the stress levels decrease each days and I am seeing a more manic and active dog. I left her when she nipped after telling her 'bad dog'. She is ultra submissive so am not seeing it as aggression, just ill-informed bite inhibition. She will be a brilliant dog in the right hands. I find a low-pitched but strong growly 'No'...works for the physical things like jumping up. But for any 'teeth' contact, like mouthing or that nip on the chin, I find a loud high-pitched squeal works...seems to be a more unpleasant & scarey sound to a dog. I've also found that a basically submissive dog can react in the early days of fostering...when there's a lot of attention via training, feeding, grooming etc...with letting totally letting loose &.becoming highly excitable. Maybe that's the manic, highly active behaviour you're seeing. I've sometimes thought of it as a dog 'overdosing' on attention. If so, I've found 2 things useful....first, using some of the strategies that 'soothe' an underconfident dog. And second, aim at rewarding only the calmer behaviours. Like getting the 'Sit' command in place...when that becomes the only time, all the good things come for the dog. Also the 'Down' command. When penny drops that good things only follow when bottom or tummy is firmly on the ground...a lot of the excitability seems to wane. In rare but extreme cases, the vet's prescribed a mild dose of valium for the first week or so...while the new learning kicks in. And I agree with you...when all finally gets into place with a little time & training...these dogs can turn out to be brilliant. Because they're basically so responsive. It's just that , in the untrained state, this can come out as excitability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 26, 2006 Author Share Posted December 26, 2006 Thanks again for the input. Using light taps on end of her nose I had her in stay for up to three metres this morning. She is very very bright and she is highly responsive. She is starting to get the idea that good things come from sitting and will work on the drop now. I agree I think I really overdosed her last night and she lost the plot. Might try the squeal when I feel teeth. She hasn't done it to me again today, but one licks I could feel the teeth gently graze against my hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 26, 2006 Author Share Posted December 26, 2006 Haven't had an overdose on attention like this girl before, but think it is because she is used to so little and then a fair dose of violence. Think she isn't much above 12 months either, she is like a lanky adolescent still. Thanks again, it is good to talk it through at times. The teeth displays last night were a bit too weird for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 The other thing she does which is disconcerting is the Belgian type smile - full front teeth displays and chatter her jaws.... I was trying to find words to describe what my Gracie did with her mouth when she first came...& your description fits her funny jaw chatter. And the lips back over front teeth... looking like how dogs do that funny 'de-fleaing' behaviour with their front teeth. Certainly not aggressive. Just over excitability & not yet being sure how to relate to the 'new' person. Gracie was almost manic when she first came...from a background of changes due to her original breeder-owner being very ill for some time. Good thing is that, with time & adjustment & the most basic training, Gracie's now the most sensible, calm dog I've had. Extremely responsive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 26, 2006 Author Share Posted December 26, 2006 (edited) yes that is a good description - de-fleaing behaviour. Just never had a dog in the late hours of the evening looming towards me doing that Looking soooo enthusiastic at me with the Hannibal Lector touch. Just unfortunate that she got my chin, it was alarming as all the behaviours came together fairly intensely for a little while. She seems 'almost' normal today. May have had something to do with it being late and dark and not used to human interaction at night or something. Edited December 26, 2006 by ARF Muttly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 yes that is a good description - de-fleaing behaviour. Just never had a dog in the late hours of the evening looming towards me doing that Looking soooo enthusiastic at me with the Hannibal Lector touch. Being a little dog, Gracie would do it when I held her in my arms. Funny, because I used to think it made her look as if she was so enthusiastic about being close to a 'new' person that this was the only way in her excitability (or nervousness, or combination of both) she could express it. But it wore off as other ways of relating took over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenb Posted December 28, 2006 Share Posted December 28, 2006 Off topic but this could be a good agility dog. Has a lot of drive, willingness to please, focus on handler and plenty of intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttly Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 Absolutely, she would be perfect. I have put a thread in the general rescue thread suggesting she could be. As she meanders around the yard she'll jump a couple of metres from slow pace and 180-360 degree twist snapping at a eucalypt branch as she casually cruises past mid-flight - it is effortless. And she doesn't try the fences She also has a very strong herding drive. Lula is on: www.fosterdogs.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Very cryptic change to the title of this topic - has this lass found a new home already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now