Debarking

[kaywoman68]

I've just been issued with a nusiance notice saying there's been excessive barking at my house

Someone has suggested debarking my dogs but I really reckon it's an absolute resort.....I dont want to jeopardise my dogs' health by putting them through an operation....I mean, they're perfectly healthy!!!!!

i personally think it's sick, i love it how my dogs communicate through there bark, thats the whole point of owning a dog. they alert us to noises. ect. now this is my opinion, and my families opinion.

I agree with you sonni. To me, a dog is entitled to bark. Just because we're supposedly SUPERIOR as humans, the "highest" in the food chain we must think we can do whatever we want.

[sonni]

i totally understand, my mums neighbours dog barks all day long, but were use to it now, and yes you will always have those neighbours that complain about every god damn thing in the world. but if your dog isnt barking all day, you can get all your other nieighbours to sign a partian, and your complaining neighbour can get s*****d we did that with our rooster our old neighbour complained about him, and we asked all of our other neighbours to sign, and the council couldnt do anything. if you have neighbours poisoning your dogs you need to call the police, that is illegal. but if you have a dog barking all day, you need to finds out why, and you cant really blame your neighbours.

Edited December 22, 2006 by sonni

[Nadia]

sonni,

dogs do not have to bark all day to be accused of being a problem, and honestly if you have not been in the situation where you are afraid for your dogs lives you would not understand what some people go through.

Dogs do get baited, bashed, stolen and dumped, families terrorised, because we live in a sick intolerant society.

Some councils also make it so hard for people with dogs.

Done correctly it does not harm the dog, if it saves a life, what is the harm??

[kaywoman68]

sonni,

dogs do not have to bark all day to be accused of being a problem, and honestly if you have not been in the situation where you are afraid for your dogs lives you would not understand what some people go through.

Dogs do get baited, bashed, stolen and dumped, families terrorised, because we live in a sick intolerant society.

Some councils also make it so hard for people with dogs.

Done correctly it does not harm the dog, if it saves a life, what is the harm??

The concern is if the procedure will be done correctly.

I'm very frustrated, upset and angry at the neighbours for not coming to talk to me about it and instead go and file a complaint instead It's very rude. Im also not having a lot of confidence in the local dog authority/pound because they wont let me have any information to confirm it's my dogs barking. It can be anyone for all I know even when supposedly the ranger came around to assess the situation I'm going to suggest the ranger meets me at my house at 5am when I wake up so he and I can both check if my dogs are barking

If there's a choice, I rather the 'debarking' be done on the kids that live on the corner block (back of our house). I like kids and I want to be a primary teacher one day but these kids just draw the line. I mean, screaming at 6am in the morning on weekends and some neighbours have the nerve to complain about my dogs. Too bad I can't complain about them

Edited December 22, 2006 by kaywoman68

[KOE]

Dogs normally make the rackett when the owners out, best thing is to leave a tape running and hear it when you return.

Debarking saves dogs lives. Personally I dont like it but if was debarking or death I know which one I would choose.

The Animal Care and Protection Act of 2001 permits surgical debarking in Queensland so long as a Veterinarian is satisfied that it is in the dog's best interests, an approriate notice has been issued about the dog's barking, and the Veterinarian considers other options have been reasonably exhausted. An ethical discussion is undertaken and it is argued that, for other options to be reasonably exhausted, an electrical stimulation anti-barking collar/s (amongst other treatments)should be tried before surgical debarking is undertaken. Such would minimise or possibly eliminate the need for surgical debarking.

[KOE]

ANIMAL CARE AND PROTECTION ACT 2001 - SECT 25

25 Debarking operations

(1) A person, other than a veterinary surgeon, must not perform an operation on a dog to prevent it from being able to bark or to reduce the volume of its bark (a debarking operation).

Maximum penalty--300 penalty units or 1 year's imprisonment.

(2) A veterinary surgeon must not perform a debarking operation on a dog unless the surgeon--

(a) reasonably considers the operation is in the interests of the dog's welfare; or

(b) has been given a relevant nuisance abatement notice and the surgeon reasonably considers the operation is the only way to comply with the notice without destroying the dog; or

© has been given an appropriate notice and the surgeon reasonably considers the only way to stop the dog's barking from being a nuisance, without destroying the dog, is to perform the operation.

Maximum penalty--300 penalty units or 1 year's imprisonment.

(3) For subsection (2)©, an appropriate notice means a notice signed by each owner of the dog asking the veterinary surgeon to perform the operation and stating each of the following--

(a) that, in the opinion of each owner, the dog's barking is a nuisance;

(b) attempts have made to prevent the dog's barking from being a nuisance;

© for each attempt--

(i) the nature of the attempt; and

(ii) enough details of the attempt to allow the veterinary surgeon to form a view under subsection (2)©;

(d) that each attempt has been unsuccessful.

Example f an attempt--

Behavioural approaches taken in consultation with a veterinary surgeon or animal behaviour expert.

(4) In this section--

bark includes cry, howl and yelp.

nuisance, for barking, means interference with the reasonable comfort, peace or privacy of anyone.

relevant nuisance abatement notice means the original, or a copy, of a notice as follows relating to the dog--

(a) a nuisance abatement notice under the Environmental Protection Act 1994 (an EPA notice);

(b) a notice, however called, under a local law if the notice--

(i) complies, or substantially complies, with the requirements for an EPA notice; or

(ii) has the same, or substantially the same, purpose as an EPA notice.5

QUEENSLAND

[calliech]

she will tap me if she needs to wake me up at night for example (or lick my lips and nose - ick!).

They're KISSES mummy!!!!

[moirat]

Well at least now I know I am not the only one with a dog with this particular idiocyncracy (sp?). She is a darling little dog and after a week the kids have stopped laughing when she barks. Although she doesn't seem to do that too much now everything is familiar to her. It is just a matter of getting over it I suppose - can't put it back so forward we go ( quietly!)

[tramissa]

I still laugh when Min barks She throws her head back and really gets into it. Makes no difference to her that nothing is coming out.

Yup, kisses, right up the nose Definitely wakes me up though

Edited to add, the person that said it was simple and just to get the police involved if baiting is around, that's all well and good, but it's not going to do too much to heal the heart of someone who has reported baiting to the police after their dog is already dead from eating it is it?

Edited December 22, 2006 by tramissa

[Jed]

Quite a few show owners and breeders have their dogs debarked (Q) and there are several vets who will perform the operation. It is not difficult, and any competent surgeon with some experience should get a 100% result. None of the dogs my friends own seem to suffer at all. They were done because of the noise level on 1000 - 3000 m2 blocks,so the neighbours would have no issues with a few dogs barking.

None of mine have been done, but if the choice was pts, rehome or debark, I would debark every time.

Sometimes the tissue grows back, and the operation needs to be performed again, but that is not common.

[kymbo]

While I agree that in certain circumstances it will save lives etc, what about the breeder/showy who does it just to create a less noisy environment for themselves? I know a lady who debarks her dogs. She shows them, but lives on a rural property in the middle of nowhere. Neighbours would not be an issue, but I have seen these dogs in action, and I would expect them to be a very vocal breed, going by the hoase continual 'barking' I hear when I am there...( cant remember what they are called tho) ...I find this a bit selfish on the owners part. Why have them if you don't want to hear them?

[UltimatePup]

I had never met a debarked dog until I attended my first dog show. There I was very surprised to find that the great majority - 4 out of 5 - small breed breeders had debarked at least some of their dogs. It struck me as rather cruel, and a surprisingly selfish 'convenience' for dog lovers. However, on reflection I can also understand the motivations...

What I don't know is how precise a vet can be - whether s/he can choose how much volume to elminate(?). I saw one dog barking away full bore with at most 5% sound coming out - almost silent. I must say that I do think that's cruel - to mute an animal who uses its voice to communicate many facts and emotions. However, to just reduce the volume of the bark, or take the piercing edge off, could be beneficial.

Does anyone know whether vets with particular skills are able to do this? - to elect whether to lower the pitch, or to reduce the volume by specified amounts, etc?? Can that horrible hoarseness be avoided? Or is it a more random/risky procedure where you really don't know how it will end up sounding?

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[Ozstar]

I live in a residential area and have neighbours who will complain at anything, so I have to have my dogs debarked. I have a great vet (he is a grey hound vet) who has done this many times. My guys still bark and howl, but there is no noise at all. I have never had any problems with their breathing etc. If my dogs where not debarked they would have been taken away by now. It is a simple procedure and my dogs have all been back running around within a few hours of the op.

If you are thinking of having your dog debarked you need to find a good vet. I have heard many dogs that where not done properly and have either barked just as loud as before the op or have suffered breathing problems after the op.

Leanne

[Erny]

It is a very controversial and IMO personal subject that I don't believe anyone is entitled to stand in judgement of any one individual case/situation unless they were to know the facts and details well. (Not that anyone here has done so.)

However, as a 'blanket' belief (not pointed to anyone here - nor you OBH, even though I've quoted a section of your post hereunder), I don't think de-barking should be considered, much less undertaken, unless ALL other possible and appropriate behaviour alteration treatments have been applied.

I live in a residential area and have neighbours who will complain at anything, so I have to have my dogs debarked.

I have been working with a dog owner (two dogs) who has a neighbour that has been causing much grief over these dogs barking. From my own observation the dogs are not barking excessively nor inappropriately. To give you an idea of what the neighbour is like, one of the things he will do is bash on his metal garage at 3am in the morning to set the dogs off and then use his camcorder to capture the barking activities. He uses this as his 'evidence' to support his complaints to Council. In this instance, I don't even believe an anti-bark collar is warranted, so we've been working on desensitising the dogs to neighbourly noises (normal and exaggerated) to reduce the barking to its absolute minimum. Slow work, but getting there.

Fortunately it requires the complaint of more than one neighbour for the Council to take formal action. This neighbour lives near a school and has also complained about the noise of the children laughing at recess/playtime. Thank heavens it's against the law to de-voice the sounds of children ........................... (although sometimes I'd prefer to hear a dog barking :rolleyes:)

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

Great post Erny.

We certainly tried other methods to de-sensitise.

"Fortunately it requires the complaint of more than one neighbour for the Council to take formal action".

Not in our case in NZ, I was living on a cross lease at the time and he was the only complainant. Briefly I submitted 22 pages of documentation to the Council about the behaviour of my dogs, including a letter from my other neighbour who at the time worked nights. If she had been disturbed by my dogs whilst trying to sleep during the day she would have been furious to say the least. :rolleyes:.

This Twerp had no evidence whatsoever, no tapes, no nothing :rolleyes:

Had a councillor visit to see the set up at home (she was a dog owner), and the last thing she said to me as she left the property after having a chat, for an hour, was "There are many a***holes in this world and he is one of them (complainant). Dont worry everything will be fine.

She turned out to be the BIGGEST A***HOLE of all time as was the "judge" in a court room appearance at the Council Chambers, where I lost my case despite the documentary evidence which had obviously not been read or taken into account.

Hence my dogs were de-barked.

For those that think it is cruel, dont get me wrong I cried and cried and cried for days before the operation but when it is a matter of de-bark or have the dogs put down, despite the fact that this twerp was the only complainant then you also would have them de-barked.

[Ozstar]

My dogs only bark at feed times or sometimes when playing.

Not all my dogs are debarked just the ones that can be a problem, will howl when not home etc.

I have tried various bark collar and high frequency devises but not have been 100%.

A bassets bark is very load and I live in a gully so it echos for miles.

I feel better in myself knowing that nothing can be said about my dogs. My dogs have no idea that they can not bark.

There are a lot of dogs around my area that do bark, but as I am the one that is known as the dog breeder, it has to be my dogs. I was still getting complaints once they had been debarked (the ones not debarked where only babies and still inside). I had the council rep come out with written complaints against my dogs which he soon ripped up after I showed him my guys where debarked. He must of told the trouble makers this as I have not had anymore complaints since.

It is amazing the things that I get asked around here just cause I breed and show dogs, everyone seems to think that it instantly makes me a vet :rolleyes:

Leanne

[morgan]

One of my dogs was debarked years ago - although a very large bitch, she had an ear-piercing pitch to it when she got worked up. At home this was not a problem - I only had to pick up a hose and she would smile and trot off, knowing she had my full attention!

However at shows it was another story - she would start the moment I walked away. I could be standing six feet in front of her, showing another dog and she would eyeball me, barking the whole time. Everyone else complained bitterly, as it had a particularly ear destroying note, and without a hose there was nothing I could do to stop her.

She was done by a vet who was an expert at it, and she was only done fairly lightly, more to alter the pitch rather than silence her. We always used to call her "Marlena Dietrich", as she had the lowest, sexiest, huskiest bark you ever heard - still fairly loud, but not ear splitting ;)

She went to shows for a number of years after this, and we never got abused again ;)

[Tangwyn]

Know someone with a 'retired' Shipperke stud bitch which was debarked. Snuffles and huffs and puffs all of the time. A lot of scar tissue present.

Not sure if that's necessarily the de-barking. My little Schip bitch, who has retired to live with my Mum, also snuffles and huffs and puffs all the time. It has more to do with a congenital enlongated soft palate than de-barking as she's not been done.

Tangwyn

[Jed]

Although none of mine are debarked, and I haven't really considered it, I must say that none of the dogs I know who have been debarked seem at all bothered by it. They all seem to get about making funny noises, without any problems at all. I used to feel that it was not such a good idea, but having seen so many apparently unbothered dogs, my opinion has changed somewhat.

[sas]

I've just been issued with a nusiance notice saying there's been excessive barking at my house

Someone has suggested debarking my dogs but I really reckon it's an absolute resort.....I dont want to jeopardise my dogs' health by putting them through an operation....I mean, they're perfectly healthy!!!!!

i personally think it's sick, i love it how my dogs communicate through there bark, thats the whole point of owning a dog. they alert us to noises. ect. now this is my opinion, and my families opinion.

I agree with you sonni. To me, a dog is entitled to bark. Just because we're supposedly SUPERIOR as humans, the "highest" in the food chain we must think we can do whatever we want.

Your dogs are not entitled to bark excessively and distrub others.