Debarking

[moirat]

I bought home my new bitch last Friday,a two year old from NSW. On the way home I received a call from her previous owner saying that she had forgotten to mention the fact that she ( the dog of course) had been debarked. Not a question I had thought to ask when discussing the purchase either.

I was quite shocked at first and felt very sorry for this little girl,especially once I heard the sad noise she makes in an attempt to bark.

It would not ( and has not) made a difference to me I am very happy with her ,I just wondered how common it was.

I took her to my vet today for a health check (he was away for a Xmas break so got his locum) he was horrified and told me over and over how it is illegal here in Queensland and I should not tell anyone that she has been debarked. A little over the top I thought !

[MolassesLass]

It may not be so over-the-top and if it were me, I'd keep it to myself as much as possible. The Qld law states that:

A person (the supplier) must not supply someone else a dog that the supplier knows has had a debarking operation performed on it unless the supplier has given the other person a signed veterinary surgeon's certificate stating the operation was performed under section 25.

Maximum penalty--150 penalty units or 1 year's imprisonment.

Which may get the seller in trouble. But more importantly, without the certificate, you could be in trouble if someone was to make an issue of it.

(1) A person, other than a veterinary surgeon, must not perform an operation on a dog to prevent it from being able to bark or to reduce the volume of its bark (a debarking operation).

Maximum penalty--300 penalty units or 1 year's imprisonment.

(2) A veterinary surgeon must not perform a debarking operation on a dog unless the surgeon--

(a) reasonably considers the operation is in the interests of the dog's welfare; or

(b) has been given a relevant nuisance abatement notice and the surgeon reasonably considers the operation is the only way to comply with the notice without destroying the dog; or

© has been given an appropriate notice and the surgeon reasonably considers the only way to stop the dog's barking from being a nuisance, without destroying the dog, is to perform the operation.

Maximum penalty--300 penalty units or 1 year's imprisonment.

(3) For subsection (2)©, an appropriate notice means a notice signed by each owner of the dog asking the veterinary surgeon to perform the operation and stating each of the following--

(a) that, in the opinion of each owner, the dog's barking is a nuisance;

(b) attempts have made to prevent the dog's barking from being a nuisance;

© for each attempt--

(i) the nature of the attempt; and

(ii) enough details of the attempt to allow the veterinary surgeon to form a view under subsection (2)©;

(d) that each attempt has been unsuccessful.

Example f an attempt--

Behavioural approaches taken in consultation with a veterinary surgeon or animal behaviour expert.

(4) In this section--

bark includes cry, howl and yelp.

nuisance, for barking, means interference with the reasonable comfort, peace or privacy of anyone.

relevant nuisance abatement notice means the original, or a copy, of a notice as follows relating to the dog--

(a) a nuisance abatement notice under the Environmental Protection Act 1994 (an EPA notice);

(b) a notice, however called, under a local law if the notice--

(i) complies, or substantially complies, with the requirements for an EPA notice; or

(ii) has the same, or substantially the same, purpose as an EPA notice.5

- Source

Through rescue I probably had 3/35 dogs that were debarked. One having terrible breathing difficulties due to the operation.

[moirat]

It may not be so over-the-top and if it were me, I'd keep it to myself as much as possible. The Qld law states that:

A person (the supplier) must not supply someone else a dog that the supplier knows has had a debarking operation performed on it unless the supplier has given the other person a signed veterinary surgeon's certificate stating the operation was performed under section 25.

Maximum penalty--150 penalty units or 1 year's imprisonment.

Which may get the seller in trouble. But more importantly, without the certificate, you could be in trouble if someone was to make an issue of it.

(1) A person, other than a veterinary surgeon, must not perform an operation on a dog to prevent it from being able to bark or to reduce the volume of its bark (a debarking operation).

Maximum penalty--300 penalty units or 1 year's imprisonment.

(2) A veterinary surgeon must not perform a debarking operation on a dog unless the surgeon--

(a) reasonably considers the operation is in the interests of the dog's welfare; or

(b) has been given a relevant nuisance abatement notice and the surgeon reasonably considers the operation is the only way to comply with the notice without destroying the dog; or

© has been given an appropriate notice and the surgeon reasonably considers the only way to stop the dog's barking from being a nuisance, without destroying the dog, is to perform the operation.

Maximum penalty--300 penalty units or 1 year's imprisonment.

(3) For subsection (2)©, an appropriate notice means a notice signed by each owner of the dog asking the veterinary surgeon to perform the operation and stating each of the following--

(a) that, in the opinion of each owner, the dog's barking is a nuisance;

(b) attempts have made to prevent the dog's barking from being a nuisance;

© for each attempt--

(i) the nature of the attempt; and

(ii) enough details of the attempt to allow the veterinary surgeon to form a view under subsection (2)©;

(d) that each attempt has been unsuccessful.

Example f an attempt--

Behavioural approaches taken in consultation with a veterinary surgeon or animal behaviour expert.

(4) In this section--

bark includes cry, howl and yelp.

nuisance, for barking, means interference with the reasonable comfort, peace or privacy of anyone.

relevant nuisance abatement notice means the original, or a copy, of a notice as follows relating to the dog--

(a) a nuisance abatement notice under the Environmental Protection Act 1994 (an EPA notice);

(b) a notice, however called, under a local law if the notice--

(i) complies, or substantially complies, with the requirements for an EPA notice; or

(ii) has the same, or substantially the same, purpose as an EPA notice.5

- Source

Through rescue I probably had 3/35 dogs that were debarked. One having terrible breathing difficulties due to the operation.

Should I be asking the previous owner for the veterinary certification for the op? I wonder if it is a touch unscrupulous to sell a dog and not mention the fact it has had this particular op until it is on its way to the new home and the money is in the bank. Health wise she is great although does seem to pant an awful lot, I put it down to the change in temperature and stress from the relocation - could it have something to do with the op?

[MolassesLass]

If they have one or can easily get one, I'd get it. The likely hood is that no one will ever challenge you over it, but just in case, it would be better to have it available. And I wouldn't be too hard on the previous owner not giving you a certificate, I doubt 99% of people know that such a law exists.

Health wise she is great although does seem to pant an awful lot, I put it down to the change in temperature and stress from the relocation - could it have something to do with the op?

It may, it may not. The vet probably would have mentioned it, if they thought the scarring in the throat was causing an issue. But I would be extra careful with the dog when it comes to over-heainting and over-exterting herself.

Hopefully somone who's lived long term with debarked dogs will come along and give you more info.

[moirat]

Thanks molasseslass I will contact her and see if I can get the necessary paperwork. Can't hurt to have it as you said. I don'tbelieve this was too deliberate although we did have many lengthy conversations before I agreed to purcahse this girl. As I said it does not make a difference as she is a very sweet natured, most compliant girl who has fitted in very easily. I has just made me wonder after the vet's reaction.

[Luke GSP]

Sorry for being nieve but what exactly does debarking entail? I had never come across it until recently when I was offered aan adult dog that had been debarked?

[tramissa]

My girl is debarked (already done when I got her at 8 1/2 years old). I cannot get the certificate as it was done 2 owners ago. I have however, gone into my vet when I moved here (moved from NSW where it's not nearly so bad to QLD where they are really against it) and explained the situation - he now has it on her records and will vouch for me if something ever happened.

It IS a huge deal in QLD. This is the first debarked dog my vet had seen in 20 odd years of practicing up here.

My girl also pants a lot. She's been up here long enough now (7 or 8 months) to be used to the humidity. I think the humidity does play a part as it is only when it's humid that she pants a lot, but I think the humidity is felt more by debarking.

Btw, my girl doesn't make ANY noise. Maybe 2 or 3 times I have heard a squeak when she's tried to bark, but usually never. She has her own way of communicating though - she will tap me if she needs to wake me up at night for example (or lick my lips and nose - ick!). She is still happy to try and bark when she wants to and it doesn't seem to have affected her much at all except for the panting.

[tramissa]

Luke, depending on the type of operation they either shave (I think) or cut the vocal chords.

cutting the chords results in no sound and isn't done all that often these days as it is a more serious operation.

The other one (not 100% sure what they do) is to 'quieten' the voice. So the dog can still bark and be heard, but at a lower volume (think inside and outside voice in kids ).

[alexiss2862]

Luke, depending on the type of operation they either shave (I think) or cut the vocal chords.

cutting the chords results in no sound and isn't done all that often these days as it is a more serious operation.

The other one (not 100% sure what they do) is to 'quieten' the voice. So the dog can still bark and be heard, but at a lower volume (think inside and outside voice in kids ).

hi there, i have a neighbours that lives a couple of doors up and they breed german shepards. i think they have at least 4 dogs. and most of theres are debarked. but this is all due to other neigbours have of complained several times, over a couple of years i think. But this guy said it depends on what they do. for his dogs he said they can either just cut them, or they scretch them. what is pretty sad. one barks like a mouse, they others just sound like they have a cold.

[Cosmolo]

I know a breeder who routinely gets all of her show dogs debarked and sees it as a normal practice

[Guest kitakins]

i hate the sounds of debarked dogs. it ends up being worse than the normal bark. sounds like a chainsaw.

[Ceilidh]

In my place I have more dogs debarked than not. In a kennel situation it makes for a happier household and happier neighbours.

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

We had our four de-barked in NZ due to neighbour complaints.

It involves a small nick in the vocal cords to stop the build up of pressure. In some instances the op isnt successful the first time and a vet will normally do it for free the second time.

I have NOT heard of the vocal cords being cut, or shaved.

I dont know about it sounding like a chainsaw, it depends on the breed and the vet's skill, ours sound like they have laryngitis.

Whilst it may have been illgeal in QLD, correct me if I am wrong, I understood that that had now changed?.

Have a breeder friend near me who has always had hers de-barked and have met others as well, so there are vets in QLD who do do the operation.

Panting more has nothing what soever to do with the operation.

[wylie]

I have 2 debarked in my kennels. They still bark contantly but it is hoarser to say the least.

Neither have breathing issues.

One is in training in herding and up until her last litter was in training on a daily basis. Even when she was pregnant and carrying way to much weight she still worked ( her choice small runs) She was panting excessively then. I feel it was more to do with the weather ( hot) to many puppies and to much fat ( she was a good 5 kg overweight)

She is back to being slim and trim and does not pant excessively but still barks excessively.

Her debarking has changed her and my relationship as she is not constantly being told of for barking at nothing and for continued barking. And she was not a bored dog she just liked the sound of her own voice.

She was debarked before the new laws came in! There are also still vets around that will debark in Qld but you have to be willing to have tried various other avenues before they will do the operation.

Edited December 22, 2006 by wylie

[bassac]

Know someone with a 'retired' Shipperke stud bitch which was debarked. Snuffles and huffs and puffs all of the time. A lot of scar tissue present.

[tramissa]

Before I got Minnie I thought it was cruel, now I don't.

Minnie has suffered in no way from being debarked.

As per what ML has posted, it CAN still be done in QLD, but only under very specific circumstances.

Minnie's vocal chords were cut - I wasn't sure what the other method was so thanks . She can make no sound at all. I'd prefer the other way where they're just 'quieter'

Edited December 22, 2006 by tramissa

[Nadia]

I have lived personally with at least 8 dogs that have been "debarked", the actual word is misleading because most dogs are simply toned down, not completely silenced.

None of my dogs or those that have stayed here have had any health issues as a result of the procedure, and no breathing difficulties, several dogs were brachycephalic breeds and suffered no ill effects.

I have seen one dog that did suffer breathing difficulties, the dog had the procedure done in a southern state prior to purchase, it did have problems, but both the Vets that I worked with at the time who examined the dog believed the dog had congenital abnormalities that by rights made it not suitable for the procedure to be performed in the first place.

For many animals the procedure can in fact be a life saver, and if done correctly by an experienced Vet will not impact upon the dogs health at all.

In my case the dogs still barked, they still ran around madly mouthing off, they were simply very much quieter, they thought they were barking up a storm, it had no impact on them at all.

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

Forgot to mention that in our case we were faced with the optioon of either having them de-barked or having them impounded and put down, in those cirsumstances am sure you would be taking the same option.

Unfortunately our breed do tend to be noisy little blighters, as Wylie and Nadia have both said de-barked dogs still run around barking madly its just that the noise level is decreased by about 80%

[sonni]

i personally think it's sick, i love it how my dogs communicate through there bark, thats the whole point of owning a dog. they alert us to noises. ect. now this is my opinion, and my families opinion.

[Nadia]

sonni many dogs are "debarked" to save their lives.

What is sick about that???

Have you ever lived in a place where dog haters throw baits over fences, and continually complain to the council until families are forced to surrender their pets, Euthanase them, or give them up???

You may enjoy the sounds a dog makes, and most dog lovers do, but the reality of the sick world in which we now live, is that those same endearing noises are classified as a nuisence under the law, and dogs do die because of it.

I said in my earlier post that the most dogs that have had the procedure still have a voice, it is simply quieter.

Nothing sick at all about that.