New Puppy....some Advice Needed

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Lilysmum

1. Confine the pup when you cannot supervise. This means a crate - it should only be large enough for him to use as a bed. If he can toilet in one end and sleep and eat in the other, it's too big. Reduce the crate's interior size by putting a divider in.

2. The pup should only be "free" at the following times: playing, after meals when he's outdoors toileting, when he's on lead (inside or outside).

You ARE joking, aren't you?

According to the above, the poor damn pup is spending most of his time in the crate. And if it is only large enough to be a bed, he should only be in it for a minimum amount of time. That advice, imho, equates to animal cruelty. Crates are NOT a way of life, or a substitute for decent puppy care, they are a worthwhile tool, but ONLY if used correctly.

According to the above, he will only be out of the crate for a couple of hours day!! How is he supposed to develop, both mentally and physically, like that?

ralphthelab - just stick with it. He doesn't have much control at the moment. Take him out, wait - and make much of him when he goes (a "buzz" word often helps). Inside, take him out 10 minutes after he eats, and wait. Take him out about every 45 mins, or when you see him nose down, or circling, or looking uncomfortable. He will pee in his bed if he can't get out, because he simply can't hang on that long. If you are crating him overnight, try to take him out late pm and early am.

If you are worried about him having accidents inside, buy some of those puppy pads from the pet shop. The are like a disposable nappy, only flat. Lay one on the floor, and with any luck, he will use it. They are impregnanted with a smell which suggests "puppies go here" - and 90% do use them. That will save your floors if he is caught short - and he will use it.

Personally, I would confine him to the laundry, bathroom - somewhere cool and with a hard, impervious floor, while you are at work. Much safer for him. Give him his bed, toys etc, and put one of the puppy pads down. (And hope he doesn't chew it up, has happened!!)

No I'm not joking...this is a baby pup with no bladder or bowel control and from what was posted, in a busy household that doesn't catch his 'need to go signals'. So crating is suggested only if the person can't supervise as I outlined...where I said, in part, "when he's on lead (inside or outside)." Or did you not comprehend that bit? It's perfectly acceptable to confine a pup using a lead assuming there is a competent person holding the other end to ensure the pup's signals aren't missed.

To the OP, please take whatever advice suits your situation...but the basics of house training are: supervise, confine, praise/reward, ensure you have a word or phrase to use when the animal toilets so they make the connection, and use a crate if you want to do so b/c IMO and experience, crating and/or lead-bonding work very well to house train a dog or pup.

[Jed]

Lilysmum

No I'm not joking...this is a baby pup with no bladder or bowel control and from what was posted, in a busy household that doesn't catch his 'need to go signals'. So crating is suggested only if the person can't supervise as I outlined...where I said, in part, "when he's on lead (inside or outside)." Or did you not comprehend that bit? It's perfectly acceptable to confine a pup using a lead assuming there is a competent person holding the other end to ensure the pup's signals aren't missed.

I comprehended it perfectly well, thanks.

When you give "advice" which is contrary to the best interests of the pup/dog, EXPECT someone to pull you up on it, and correct it, in the best interest of the dog referred to. I have no problem with the lead, I have a problem with excessive crating time, AND the pup being either in the crate or on leash for most of the time.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Lilysmum

No I'm not joking...this is a baby pup with no bladder or bowel control and from what was posted, in a busy household that doesn't catch his 'need to go signals'. So crating is suggested only if the person can't supervise as I outlined...where I said, in part, "when he's on lead (inside or outside)." Or did you not comprehend that bit? It's perfectly acceptable to confine a pup using a lead assuming there is a competent person holding the other end to ensure the pup's signals aren't missed.

I comprehended it perfectly well, thanks.

When you give "advice" which is contrary to the best interests of the pup/dog, EXPECT someone to pull you up on it, and correct it, in the best interest of the dog referred to. I have no problem with the lead, I have a problem with excessive crating time, AND the pup being either in the crate or on leash for most of the time.

So, if you comprehended my post, why on earth did you feel it necessary to question what I had posted? :rolleyes:

You can't have it both ways. Either you pick my posts to pieces for a valid reason (which doesn't apply here, as you've just admitted as I've quoted you, that you DID comprehend my post) or you just pick them to pieces b/c you get some kind of kick out of it. Whatever floats your boat, as Dr Phil says!

You can always 'ignore user' if you don't like to read what I post...but that wouldn't be as entertaining for you, would it? ;)

[cavNrott]

.

Edited June 6, 2009 by cavNrott

[Toohey]

Excellent information there in post number 20 Jed (I won't quote the whole thing). Highly comprehensible also

Crates definitely have a place in puppy raising, in fact they are worth their weight in gold when used correctly, but puppies should not be confined in them during the day unless absolutely necessary, and for short periods only. They need to run and play and explore.

I used the kitchen (when I was out) for my latest pup, and put up a safety gate so the other dogs could be in the other part of the house where she could see them but not annoy them.

The crate was for my relaxation time, and for night time, though, she soon learned to open the door and put herself to bed in there when she wanted time out herself during the day. She still loves her crate.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Toohey

[Jed]

Lillysmum

So, if you comprehended my post, why on earth did you feel it necessary to question what I had posted

I comprehended it perfectly well, as did several other posters, from their replies. The question is, did you?

I will reiterate - a puppy should not spend excessive time in a crate.

Not for any reason - except maybe under veterinary advice for a medical problem - and even then it should have plenty of things to occupy itself, and plenty of attention. Otherwise, problems develop.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

There are some keys to house training a pup that are fairly easy as long as you are consistent with this.

1. Confine the pup when you cannot supervise. This means a crate - it should only be large enough for him to use as a bed. If he can toilet in one end and sleep and eat in the other, it's too big. Reduce the crate's interior size by putting a divider in.

2. The pup should only be "free" at the following times: playing, after meals when he's outdoors toileting, when he's on lead (inside or outside).

3. Ignore mistakes and try to remember that if he's making mistakes, it's b/c you're not seeing his 'gotta go' signals or you're not taking him out often enough.

4. He will need to toilet at least: after every meal, as soon as he wakes up, after each play session.

5. He needs a routine. This means a schedule for meals, toileting, playtime and other quiet time. It's up to you to ensure these things happen regularly and predictably.

6. Feed him definite meals and don't leave food down all the time. Also, remove water at least one hour before bed and just give him a few ice cubes instead.

7. IMO it is much harder to house train a dog OR pup that is left outside during the day. It takes them longer to establish the connection between "outside" for recreation and "outside" for toilet. If you can keep him indoors in his crate during the day, he should pick up the connection much more quickly. And if you're having someone come home at lunchtime, IMO crating him should work fine! Just don't crate him forever - - - but you won't need to anyway.

HTH. And congrats!

I've bolded the points that some *seem* to be having trouble with, that is, a pup is OK to be crated to learn house training. It's what many vets, behaviourists and trainers recommend particularly in the UK and USA. But I did say "just don't crate him forever" and I trust that people do know what that means. If you'd rather leave your pup roaming indoors, that's your choice. If you'd rather leave the pup outside, again that's your choice. My suggestion to crate while house training is what I've found to be the most useful method of house training. It's acceptable as a short-term tool, and it works. :D

[Miranda]

2. The pup should only be "free" at the following times: playing, after meals when he's outdoors toileting, when he's on lead (inside or outside).

I must say lillysmum that I don't agree with your second point either, I actually keep my babies outside if I'm too busy to supervise them, much healthier than confining them to a crate or leashing them IMO. I have noticed that my puppies often just potter around, not actually playing, but definitely not sleeping either, just wandering around and exploring and learning about their new world. All my dogs are crate trained and I have no issue with this, but I definitely think that your statement is open to misinterpretation by new puppy owners especially if, as is often the case, they don't read your post in its entirety.

[ralfthelab]

Ok,

I've taken everybodys input and also have spoken to a Vet who was recommended to me.

I've decided the following.

1. Crate him during the night getting up every 3 hours to bring him outside to the toilet. So far, this is working very well and he has not soiled his crate since the very first night.

2. Crate him at meal times.

3. When somebody is home, he is left to roam the house (under supervision) or outside if somebody can't keep an eye on him

4. When at work, he will stay outside - from 8.30 am to 12.30 pm when somebody will come home, feed him, have a little play and then leave him for the rest of the day. Somebody is usually home by 5.30 at which time he is let back inside.

This has worked well for the last 2 days.

Also,

I think i may be slighly confusing him because when we take him out of his crate, we take him out the front of the house where there is lots of grass so he can relieve himself (and its easy to clean after he finishes). However, during the day, we leave him out the back which only has a very small strip of dirt (no grass) and mostly concrete. We can't give him access to the same area because he will definately get stolen out the front.

Yesterday i had him out the back with the door open, and he puposely came inside to wee.......he didn't head for the front door or anything but he came into the kitchen and wee'd on the floor.

I know this is not ideal but its my only choice. Can anybody recommend ways to make sure he knows that both these spots are his toilet area (the front grass and the back dirt i mean) Should i be sharing the front and back equally when we take him out at night to toilet? Its so much harder out the back because he has such a small area to use as his toilet (the dirt strip is about 2 meters long by 30cm deep) Out the front, i can just walk him around and he goes by himself, usually fairly quickly.

Thanks again everybody

Edited December 19, 2006 by ralfthelab

[Benji's Mum]

To give the dogs access to greenery when we have a dirt backyard, we have grown wheat in low-sided tubs and the dogs love grazing from them. Definitely helps their appetites, and might help with your weeing prob.

Edited to make sense - too many distractions! Good luck with your new pup.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Benji's Mum

[persephone]

Simple, ralfthelab....don't take him out the front anymore This may condition him to relieve mostly on grass ( or carpe t :D )....maybe cut a piece of turf, and place out the back for him ? That way he is where YOu want, but with a texture/smell HE likes ....

I also have houstetrained many pups who are mostly daytime outside dogs....most take only a few days if a routine and sharp eyes are used consistently.

Your idea of leaving him out in the daytime sounds good.Remember to CLEAN the area he uses to toilet....dogs don't like walking in their mess

Looking forward to photos....Oh..and the type of food you use can help with housetraining too ! The so-called "premium" foods etc with a low waste percentage are mostly digested, leaving not much waste to worry about. This also means the puppy doesn't need to relieve himself as often

[Jed]

ralfthelab

2. Crate him at meal times

Unless someone is likely to pinch his food, there is no particular reason for crating him at meal times, though it wont hurt him.

Otherwise, all sounds good to me.

I am against pups/dogs spending more than a very short time in a crate.

I do believe it has an extremely bad effect on them, and unfortunately, some of these problems are put down to "training" or "temperament" issues, because there seems no obvious cause. Pups have a definite cycle of development, both in utero and after, and restricting their ability to explore/experience/learn does, I believe, do some damage. It may not seem like much, or affect the dog, but some dogs are affected more than others.

This is just my personal opinion, but I have had experience with dogs who were imho "over crated" and it wasn't good!!

Training fashions change, depending on who writes what, and what seems to work - some fashions go and some stay, some are harmful, some are not.