New Puppy....some Advice Needed

[ralfthelab]

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and so far it has made for very useful and interesting reading.

I have just brought home a 8 w/o Lab who i'd like to house train immediately by crate training.

Both my partner and I work during the day so we're planning on keeping him outside during the day and inside with us when we're home. We also are keeping him in his crate while we sleep but are getting up every 2-3 hours to bring him outside to go to the toilet. This worked last night but he has once already soiled his crate (pooping and weeing). When he's inside he will wee just about anywhere he pleases. When i walk him he will usally go to the toilet which is great, but getting him to go in our own back yard is a struggle. He just goes inside when we're around. We try and keep and eye on him but just as soon as i look away, he's peeing !

Do i just need to persist and continue doing what i'm doing.

We leave the outside door open and i've brought him to his toilet spot straight after his inside mistakes. I've also brought some of the mess that i've cleaned to the toilet spot and try and praise him in that spot. I also try and praise him when he goes to the toilet and we're out for a short walk.

Does this sound ok ? Should i just persist and assume he will get it eventually. Its only been a few days so far but i just want to make sure i'm going about things the right way.

Are we going to be OK to leave the puppy in the back-yard during the day (i've obviously secured it so its safe) One of us will definately come home at lunch time to feed and walk him but he will be outside and away from his crate....does this default the whole purpose of the crate training ?

We just want to make sure we're going about things the right way.

Thanks for the help

[kiahzen]

What your doing sounds fine... I know exactly how you feel with the toilet training. We just recently got a male rotty and he is now 11 weeks old. It has taken most of the 3 weeks that we have had him to get him to go outside 95% of the time.

We have another dog 5 year old rotty which i think has made thing a little easier as he follows her outside and when she does a wee he will walk over to her and we over were she did. We still had to take him out every hour or more to get him to go.

I only use two words outside on the way there and wee when we are out on the lawn, lots of pats and praise. It didn't seem to be getting through to him so i started using food rewards when he did the right thing.

The only other suggestion that we had was that when you are cleaning up his mess make sure that you are using a good pet cleaner that gets rid of his scent else he will just keep going inside.

For the first week he stayed inside and we just puppy proofed the area he was in to and cleaned up whatever mess was there when we got home. Now he stays outside when we are not home with our other dog and they are fine together.

He now mostly goes to the toilet outside and sometimes he is even taking himself out there without us having to do it but we still go out there to remond him thats what he has to do just not as often as before.

We always leave the back door open for both of them to go out there whenever they want to. At first he was too scared to go out there and he is now used to it and we often find him out there on his own playing.

Just be persistent with what you are doing and he will soon get the hang of it.. Just make sure you dont make a fuss when he goes inside and if he is caught in the act say NO or growl at him and take him outside and show him... It eventually starts to work...

Edited December 17, 2006 by bluepoppy

[ReXy]

persistance is the key here and watch him like .. take him out the usually time after meals sleep play, and any other time u can about every 30 mins.. you said in your first post that he goes on short walks.... while i think it is very important to socialise.. pups this young should not be walked,, a play in the backyard is quiet enough at this stage,,, you said youve only had him a few days,, pups have a lot to learn in the first few weeks.. settling in to their new home is a huge thing. get to know your pup,, bond with him and play with him.. going out on walks is not nessasary at this young age...the crate is a wonderfull thing. you may need to take him out during the night so he doesnt soil in there... anpother thing too,, if the crate is to big, a pup will use one end for toileting and not worry about it,, if it is that big, u need to block one end off so he cant toilet one end and sleep another,, does that make sence?? good luck , congrats on your new baby and welcome to the forum,,, we will need lotttss of pics of this baby, can never get enough of labby babys..

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

There are some keys to house training a pup that are fairly easy as long as you are consistent with this.

1. Confine the pup when you cannot supervise. This means a crate - it should only be large enough for him to use as a bed. If he can toilet in one end and sleep and eat in the other, it's too big. Reduce the crate's interior size by putting a divider in.

2. The pup should only be "free" at the following times: playing, after meals when he's outdoors toileting, when he's on lead (inside or outside).

3. Ignore mistakes and try to remember that if he's making mistakes, it's b/c you're not seeing his 'gotta go' signals or you're not taking him out often enough.

4. He will need to toilet at least: after every meal, as soon as he wakes up, after each play session.

5. He needs a routine. This means a schedule for meals, toileting, playtime and other quiet time. It's up to you to ensure these things happen regularly and predictably.

6. Feed him definite meals and don't leave food down all the time. Also, remove water at least one hour before bed and just give him a few ice cubes instead.

7. IMO it is much harder to house train a dog OR pup that is left outside during the day. It takes them longer to establish the connection between "outside" for recreation and "outside" for toilet. If you can keep him indoors in his crate during the day, he should pick up the connection much more quickly. And if you're having someone come home at lunchtime, IMO crating him should work fine! Just don't crate him forever - - - but you won't need to anyway.

HTH. And congrats!

[cavNrott]

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Edited June 6, 2009 by cavNrott

[ralfthelab]

Thanks for the advice.

We leave for work at 830am in the morning.

Do you think it is OK to keep him crated until around 11-11.30 and then come home and bring him out to the toilet and a feed ? Then put him back in his crate, head back to work and come back in the arvo to give him another toilet visit (say around 2-30), then put him back until we get home from work around 5.30-6

Obviously when we get home he out of the crate for the rest of the night until bedtime (about 11pm)

Is this method Ok ? I'm assuming as he gets older i can reduce the visits home to 1 at lunchtime ? I'm worried that this is a long time to spend in a crate ?

thanks again for the help

I'll post some pics a little later...

Edited December 17, 2006 by ralfthelab

[AussieDog]

I have two puppies at the moment. When I brought my now older puppy home at 11 weeks (he was brought from the RSPCA) we showed him that night how to use the doggie door and ever since he has taken himself outside to go to the toilet. He has never leaked inside the house.

My younger puppy that is the same age at the moment (11 weeks) is proving more difficult. During the night I take her out every 3-4hrs. I have to wake her up to but for the last 4-5 weeks no mess inside during the night. During the day when I am at home I take her out every few hrs but she does have the odd accident inside every now and then.

I haven't crated either of my dogs - I don't understand the whole concept of confining a dog for such a long period of time - I don't believe there are any benefits to it except for the owner - not having to puppy proof the house and clean up mess. Puppies and dogs love to play - sitting in a steel enclosure for any length of time surely must be boring for them. I can only see the benefits of crating when an animal is recovering from desexing/or an operation or very young small puppies - i.e. only a couple of weeks old.

I also take both my puppies out for walks and off lead run about at the park. I can only imagine the destruction both of these puppies would cause if they didn't get exercised.

[ralfthelab]

I try and take him out at all the apripiate times (after sleeping, playing, eating etc) But sometimes (like now) I take him outside and he doesn't do anything. How long should i wait ? The problem i have is as i wait longer, he sometimes thinks its a great time to have another sleep etc. Should i take him inside if this happens ? Is 5-10 minutes enought time ?

thanks again...this is so useful

[MyMontage]

Ralfthelab...

When my doggy was around 8 weeks old and we had to go to work, we confined him inside the house in a small section (we pulled the chair across so he couldn't get to the whole house). He had toys, paper to pee & poop on, and a crate to sleep in if he wanted to and water to drink.

He was very good, we would come home, he would have pee'd on his paper, and all his toys would be all over the place. As he got older, we started giving him more room to wander around in, but he still always goes back to his paper in that room if he is inside and needs to go.

We do leave him outside now while we are at work, with his outside bed, and all his toys, and he is fine. But he can stay inside while we are out too which is good.

You just have to ignore the piddles if you don't catch them in the act, and just clean it up. Watch for the signs of needing to go and let him out then. I used to just sit with mine until he went, then praised him LOADS and then go back in. If you do catch him in the act, just pick him up quickly, say 'no' and put him outside where you want him to go.

You will go fine....GOOD LUCK

[cavNrott]

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Edited June 6, 2009 by cavNrott

[AussieDog]

CavNrott - I 100% agree with you and is also the way i manage my puppies.

ralfthelab when i take Molly outside to go the toilet i make sure she walks herself outside (following me of course) through the doggie door. I think this is the best way so then she knows 1) how to get out into the backyard and 2) doesn't get lazy cause she will think i'll carry her. Once outside i literally stand still on the grass and tell her to do weez. 9/10 she will go straight away. If she sits down or starts to play with a toy i walk further up the garden where she follows but drops her toy and again tell her to do weez. If she falls to the ground and sleeps i go back inside but leave her out to come back in as she will. Seems to work. Standing out in the cold at night for 5mins i think is heaps.

Molly has a HUGE drink every time we wake up in the night so every 4hrs i know she'll have to go.

[ralfthelab]

Thanks again for the replies.

My problem is there is SO much conflicting information.

Some say crating, others say not to during the day. Its hard to know what to do with so many opinions.

Anyway, it gives me some perspective on my options. Importantly, i need to make sure that when i am home, he is always going to the toilet outside. This has been hard to 2nd guess as the whole 'after meals and after play time' doesn't always bring him to the point where he needs to go to the toilet, so i end up waiting outside with him for ages and he starts to sleep or play which i know is the wrong message for him.

So my questions are:

1. Should i just go outside, give him a few minutes without paying him any attention and if he doesn't do anything bring him back in for another 30 minutes ?

2. Is he OK to roam free with me during this period back inside or should i crate him until bringing him out again ?

3. Should i be letting him out of his crate straight after eating ?

Thanks again everybody

[Florise]

Crates are great for when you aren't able to supervise them.

If you let him roam free and CAN watch him and see he is circling or sniffing, you can grab him and take him outside before (hopefully) before he gets the chance to let go.

Let him out of the crate after eating as that is the time he likely to need to go to the toilet.

I would not recommend crating during the day. Can you section off and puppy proof an area in the house for him, such as the laundry or kitchen?

Puppies are hard work. You have to be consistent and diligent but you will soon see your efforts paying off when he gets the right ideas in his head.

[cavNrott]

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Edited June 6, 2009 by cavNrott

[flycow]

The toilet cue words should really help. I use Wee wee and Poo Poo. In the first few weeks from 8wk, whenever we play in the yard and pup did a wee, I kept saying 'wee wee, wee wee'. Same with Poo, I said it during the action, once finish, pup gets her favorite treat and a huge happy praise from me. It took about 3 weeks for her to totally linked the words. I dont' scold or stare at her when she made any mistakes indoors, just cleaned it up quietly. Once pup gets the command, you can bring him to backyard at regular times (read footnote), get his attention and say the word repeatedly, he should get the message.

footnote: if you feed at regular times, keep a diary of his poo, it is always predictable. Depends on dogs, the food pass through their system from 12hours to 18hours, + - 15mins etc. My pup is about 12-14hours, thus breakfast will pass after dinner time at night and dinner pass after breakie time in morning. *sorry a bit gross here*

ETA: can't spell.

Edited December 17, 2006 by flycow

[Jed]

Lilysmum

1. Confine the pup when you cannot supervise. This means a crate - it should only be large enough for him to use as a bed. If he can toilet in one end and sleep and eat in the other, it's too big. Reduce the crate's interior size by putting a divider in.

2. The pup should only be "free" at the following times: playing, after meals when he's outdoors toileting, when he's on lead (inside or outside).

You ARE joking, aren't you?

According to the above, the poor damn pup is spending most of his time in the crate. And if it is only large enough to be a bed, he should only be in it for a minimum amount of time. That advice, imho, equates to animal cruelty. Crates are NOT a way of life, or a substitute for decent puppy care, they are a worthwhile tool, but ONLY if used correctly.

According to the above, he will only be out of the crate for a couple of hours day!! How is he supposed to develop, both mentally and physically, like that?

ralphthelab - just stick with it. He doesn't have much control at the moment. Take him out, wait - and make much of him when he goes (a "buzz" word often helps). Inside, take him out 10 minutes after he eats, and wait. Take him out about every 45 mins, or when you see him nose down, or circling, or looking uncomfortable. He will pee in his bed if he can't get out, because he simply can't hang on that long. If you are crating him overnight, try to take him out late pm and early am.

If you are worried about him having accidents inside, buy some of those puppy pads from the pet shop. The are like a disposable nappy, only flat. Lay one on the floor, and with any luck, he will use it. They are impregnanted with a smell which suggests "puppies go here" - and 90% do use them. That will save your floors if he is caught short - and he will use it.

Personally, I would confine him to the laundry, bathroom - somewhere cool and with a hard, impervious floor, while you are at work. Much safer for him. Give him his bed, toys etc, and put one of the puppy pads down. (And hope he doesn't chew it up, has happened!!)

[ralfthelab]

Personally, I would confine him to the laundry, bathroom - somewhere cool and with a hard, impervious floor, while you are at work. Much safer for him. Give him his bed, toys etc, and put one of the puppy pads down. (And hope he doesn't chew it up, has happened!!)

Jed, thanks for the reply.

I understand your point but i thought that letting him use the puppy pads sort of defeats the purpose of useing the crate method ? If it doesn't have this effect then i'm very happy to take your suggestion on board.

Also, the crate i am using is actually a sectioned off toilet room (tiled) Its about 1 meter by 1 meter so it has a bit of space and isn't so confining. If we come home twice a day and spend 30 minutes with him excersing etc. do you think this is ok ? That means he will be in his (largish) crate during the night, for 3 hours in the morning, for 3 hours in the afternoon, and then back in at night time (around 11pm). We also get up twice per night to take him to the toilet.

Is this ok or do you still think we should make his crate area even bigger and use the puppy pads ?

Thanks again everybody.....its great to know my puppy is going to get the best advice

[sas]

8 weeks old....they don't have the control for toilet training at this age so you may need to wait another month until things really start heading in the right direction.

[sas]

There are some keys to house training a pup that are fairly easy as long as you are consistent with this.

7. IMO it is much harder to house train a dog OR pup that is left outside during the day. It takes them longer to establish the connection between "outside" for recreation and "outside" for toilet. If you can keep him indoors in his crate during the day, he should pick up the connection much more quickly. And if you're having someone come home at lunchtime, IMO crating him should work fine! Just don't crate him forever - - - but you won't need to anyway.

HTH. And congrats!

Never had that problem with any of our foster dogs who spend the day in the yard and they typically toilet train in 48 hours.

Mind you, we don't use the term 'outside'. Simply 'wees' when we go outside and then big praise.

[Jed]

The puppy pads save accidents - at the moment, he is not able to last for 4 hours. I think they are a conjunction to house training - if he uses them, you can move them outside when he is old enough to go out there. 3x3 m is a good size - there is room for his bed, and the pad, but if you come home and take him out, that's even better.

I think crates are ok - for the right purpose. They should not be used to "keep the pup out of the way", or for long periods. Not good for the pup.

Unless you are there all the time, the pup is going to have accidents. I think to expect full house training under 4 -5 months is optimistic. 5 months is probably more realistic. If he is able to use the pads (or newspaper) he is not conditioned to wetting all over the house, and if the training has progressed satisfactorily, he will abandon the pads/paper once he can hold on.

Once my pups are out of the whelping box, they progress to a 3x3m pen in the lounge. On one side is their bed, toys, and food bowls, and the floor is covered with newspaper. They use the newspaper, and as they age, the messes are confined to one corner far from the food and bed. I change the paper regularly, of course.

I have 1 x 9 week old pup here now. She lives in her pen, but she goes outside with the other dogs, or is inside with me, for most of the time. She is in the pen to eat and sleep. She is there overnight, and when I am out, because she is safe there. She uses the newspaper. Over the past week, I have been taking her outside before I go to bed. I let her outside about 6am. This morning, for the first time, I noticed there was no mess in the pen. When she is inside, I take her out regularly, and if she does go, I praise her. I raise them all like this, and have noticed no problem with house training when they progress from the pen to "regular" living, which means being inside. Better they go on the paper than on the floor.

I give this brief information to my puppy buyers, as part of their puppy pack - and it seems to work.

Housebreaking your new puppy is going to take patience. You should begin to housebreak as soon as you bring your new puppy home. Puppies need to relieve themselves approximately six times a day. A puppy should be taken out immediately after each meal since a full stomach puts pressure on the colon and bladder.

A puppy is not physically able to control the muscle that allows him to "hold it" until he is about 12 weeks of age. Before this time, good housebreaking routines should be practiced to avoid having your puppy urinate and defecate all over your house. Watch for signs of urination or defecation, such as turning in circles. Take your puppy out often. Using a crate or confining your puppy to a small part of the house that has easy clean floors are some ways to ensure your puppy does not urinate all over your house. It is much harder to housebreak a puppy if he smells his urine in places you do not wish him to relieve himself.

Understanding your puppy or dog:

There are many different methods in which you can housebreak your pet. Whichever way you choose, it is important to understand your puppy. Dogs want to please; the trick is to make them understand what it is you want from them.

Dogs do not think the way humans do. When you are unhappy with your dog, it assumes that whatever it is doing at the exact moment you show disapproval - is the thing that is upsetting you. For example:

If your puppy relieves himself on your floor and you show your disapproval five minutes after he has committed the act, the puppy will think that the mess on the floor is bad. He will not relate to the fact that it was the act of relieving himself on your floor that you disapprove of. The dog will eliminate, see the mess and get worried; you are now going to be unhappy. This is the reason so many dogs will relieve themselves in inappropriate places and look really guilty about it, yet they continue to do it. Dogs want to please, right?

Some owners start to think that their dog is being sneaky when really it does not fully understand what it is doing wrong. It knows the mess upsets you but does not understand that it should stop making the mess. To your dog, these two things:

· the mess,

· and the act,

are unrelated. The trick is to catch your dog in the act and make him understand. You do not need to hit your dog. The tone of your voice is enough to make the dog see you are unhappy. A firm "No! You are not allowed to go in the house. No! No!" is all that is needed. Immediately take your dog outside to the appropriate place. Wait for your dog to go again and when and if he does, praise him. Important: Always praise your dog after he eliminates in the appropriate place.

If you must leave your dog all day long every day and you have nobody to let the dog out during the day, you should find a room without a rug, put down Housebreaking Pads, food, water and toys. You should set up the room so that the bed and food are at one end and the pee pads at the other. Spread the toys in the centre of the room. Dogs are not fish. They need to find something to occupy their mind, so give your dog plenty of toys.

You must be willing to invest time and energy for just a few short weeks in housetraining. The effort you put in now will last for the rest of your pet's life.

As soon as you see him pacing, sniffing around, and turning in circles, immediately take him outside. He is telling you "I am going to go pee pee somewhere, and this carpet looks like as good a place as any." NO, you do not have time to put on your shoes, just go.

Be patient and do not rush the little guy. He may have to go several times in one "pit stop." Give him about 10 minutes before taking him back inside. Do not play with him while you are on this mission. Let him know this is a business trip.

Make sure you take him out after every meal and play session. Be consistent and establish a schedule. Pay attention to your puppy's behaviour so you can develop a schedule that works for you and the pup. When does your puppy naturally defecate? In the morning? 10 minutes after eating? Around bedtime? You may have to make some compromises.

Make sure everyone who is involved in the housebreaking process is using the same spot in the yard and the same word. Everyone should agree on the place they will take the puppy. The odor from the previous visits will cause the puppy to want to go in that spot. Use a simple word like "outside" when taking your puppy to the chosen spot. Use this word consistently and later this word will help build communication between the family and the dog. When you notice him going toward the door and you say "outside" he can say "Yup, that’s where I need to go," or, "Forget it. I am getting back up on the couch for some shut eye."

Until your puppy is about 5 months old you will need to take him out frequently and keep that eagle eye on him. But before you know it, you are going to be able to trust and communicate with your new pet. And he will learn that when he pleases you by going out to do his business, he gets more freedom in the house.

Paper Training:

If your puppy is a breed that stays small and it is going to be an indoor pet, you may want to try paper training. Place layered newspaper in the corner away from the feeding and water dishes. After meals take the puppy to the newspaper. Each time the puppy eliminates, change the top layer of newspaper and leave the bottom layer. Puppies like to go where they smell urine and faeces and will start to prefer the newspaper over any other spot.

Important:

Remain consistent. Do not allow your puppy to do something one day and not the next. This will confuse him. Never leave an untrained puppy unattended in the house. Make your dog understand what is expected of him. Dogs want to please. Always praise your dog for good behaviour. No form of physical punishment is as effective as praise and encouragement.