Puppy Choice Based On Drive

[Tangwyn]

Hi All,

I have a question based on a puppy selection scenario. I am about to choose a pup for retrieving/obedience etc. I know the ideal pup is the outgoing, prey-driven one that still likes to come when you call it and will bring the retrieve article back to you (high pack drive). However, if the boldest, most active and prey driven puppy is also the most independant, (eg prefers to take the retrieve article off somewhere to have it for himself ) is it possible to achieve good training results using that drive? ie does the pup with high prey drive that seeks to please himself have the potential to outperform the pup with moderate prey drive that seeks to please his owner (high pack drive)?

Does this make sense?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Tangwyn

[Jeff Jones]

if the pups were both equal in my selection process trainability wise...i would choose the pup that returned with the article...

ETA: oops just re-read question.

as you are looking for train ability i would go with the pup that is showing that at a young age..eg the pup that retrieves to handler..

other factors come into consideration depending on what selection tests/process you would be using...

Edited December 16, 2006 by Jeff Jones

[country joe]

If I was looking for any pup.

I would start with the one that wanted to be with me. Miss or Mister Friendly

I have tried testing and sorting out litters.

The testing only confirmed this to me.

If the litter is well bred for the purpose I want I would be going for the one that wants to be with me.

This goes a long way in my book.

Sure dogs that are on the edge can make great dogs.

They can also have great problems.

Country Joe

[Tangwyn]

Hi Jeff and c-j,

Thanks for both your replies. Your opinions support my experiences with training a highly-driven dog that had little interest in pleasing or being with me. I was wondering, though, if my issues were as a result of not using the right training approach but perhaps not. He was exceptionally hard-headed and relatively oblivious to rewards and aversives unless they involved his prey drive (ie with-holding a bird because of incorrect behaviour or allowing a retrieve due to correct behaviour). I meant absolutely zero to him!

If the puppy that takes his toy and runs away is going to develop into the same dog as I had in the past then I'll be taking the pup that wants to share his toy with me! If not because of the difficulty in training then because its really pleasing to actually spend time with a dog that cares about you! :rolleyes:

Many thanks again,

Tangwyn

P.S. c-j I believe you might have had a flatcoat before? I'm getting one of those. Any tips??

[whatevah]

I have a flatcoated retriever. Josh I got him from Torlum Kennels in Geelong. His mother is a working retriever and has done quite well in the retrieving trials. Josh is a dog that loves people and dogs. He loves to be with me, and he loves to swim and retrieve. He is a very happy dog. If he sees a rabbit he will chase it for about 6 feet and then want to come back to me. He competes in flyball and loves it, just watch his tail, goes around like a helicopter.

[dasha]

Hi there,

In my opinion if there was a pup that had great drive but a little independant and a pup that had less drive but wanted to be with you, take the pup with better drive.

If you are aware the pup is a little independant from a youmg age, you can always do exercises to persuade him from a early age that it is you that has the final word. At least you will have the drive and training later.

If you can understand what I mean. I feel that it would be better than a dog that saunters out to fetch the bird and bring it back as well as enjoy the scenery!

[wheres my rock]

i'd go wit the less drive more people orientated dog drive can be built but independnce will always lurk in the background

[Cosmolo]

To be honest if i was specifically looking for a pup that was going to be some kind of working dog, i would leave that litter and find a pup that has both qualities- strong drive and desire to be with you. Drive is something i would not compromise on if i was wanting to do work that requires alot of it.

[Dogsfevr]

Agree with cosmolo & i would aslo seek the advice of an experienced breeder/worker & if possible look for a breeder that does the fields your after

[leopuppy04]

It really depends on the individual and what you mean by 'independent'. IMHO for a really good training dog you need one that is actually interested in you and working with you. I know of some people who have a super smart dog (very experienced trainer) but the dog will sometimes tell her to bugger off if the reward isn't there or not good enough for her. Now I know that some will tell me that she isn't rewarding the dog enough etc, but it honestly isn't the case... this dog chooses when it works etc... You can usually bring out a pup who has moderate prey drive to have a high prey drive through play, but it is a lot harder to turn an independent dog to one that wants to be around you.

Thats MHO anyway!

[Vickie]

This may be odd, but I think it is relevant. Your question reminded me of a story I heard about a sheepdog person. When asked how he would choose a pup from a litter, his response was "I'd take the one no-one else wanted".

When I heard the story, it made me think...Now I am in a different place & I totally agree with his sentiments.

Anyone care to guess the point?

Edited December 20, 2006 by Vickie

[Working_Setters]

I'm not experienced enough to say, IMO you'd need to have picked dozens of pups and trained them through to adulthood to be able to draw any statistically significant conclusions. In the opinion of most gundog trainers that have that sort of experience, pick your breed, your breeder and your litter very carefully. Once that's done, close your eyes and grab a pup, else choose the one you whose colouration you like.

Pups change sooooo much b/t 6-8 weeks and adulthood, the active one today is the sleepy one tomorrow. If you've choosen the right litter, then the genetics for the work will be there, after that it's a matter of environment and training.

[Tangwyn]

This may be odd, but I think it is relevant. Your question reminded me of a story I heard about a sheepdog person. When asked how he would choose a pup from a litter, his response was "I'd take the one no-one else wanted".

When I heard the story, it made me think...Now I am in a different place & I totally agree with his sentiments.

Anyone care to guess the point?

Hmmm... people usually choose the pup that chooses them ie the pup that comes and sits on their feet or their lap. If I was to choose the pup that no-one else wanted it would generally be the one that was too busy off getting into trouble to bother with people. So either you're telling me to choose the high prey drive pup with low pack drive or you're telling me to take the runty pup with a bung eye that no-one else would want! ha ha :p Is my guessing close?

I agree that the most important thing in choosing a pup is choosing the pedigree. However, this is not so easy with flatcoats. Labrador Retrievers have a number of breeders in this country that have selected for working ability over many generations. It is, therefore, relatively simple to select a litter based on a suitable bloodline. The gene pool for flatcoats is very small in this country and there are hardly any people breeding with working dogs in mind. For this reason I have selected a litter based on a bloodline of physically sound dogs with nice temperaments. Some dogs in the bloodline have had success in retrieving trials but many of the others have not been exposed to retrieving work. Perhaps they may have been good working dogs or perhaps not. Its a bit hard to know when the animals are not trained or trialled!

So this time, unfortunately, it will not be a case of "eeny-meeny-miney-mo" because there is a reasonable chance that most of the pups in the litter won't be suitable for high level trialling. I believe just about any retriever, given enough work, can attain NRD or even RRD but only a select few have the soundness and temperament to take on All Age (even in the hands of an experienced trainer which I'm not) . I'm looking to maximise my chances of choosing a pup in this litter than can be capable of doing this. Cosmolo, I think you're speaking sense when you suggest walking away from a litter if there isn't a pup with high drive and trainability. I was doing my calculations recently and worked out it takes around 1000 hours minimum of training to make a RTCh - that's alot of time to waste on a second rate dog...

I'll be viewing the litter on Sunday. Fingers crossed :rolleyes:

Tangwyn

[bridgie_cat]

Is this sheep dog guy just that good that it doesnt matter which pup he gets... so he just takes whatever is left over after everyone else picks? :rolleyes: jokes...

I think the mischeivous ones will get picked also ... so that leaves the quiet pups... = softer nature thus easier to train? but that doesnt make sense when working sheep cuz it has to be tough... oooohhh - submissive?! thus will work to his comand better?! lol - sorry I have no idea when it comes to the dif drives ... can you tell?

[Working_Setters]

I believe just about any retriever, given enough work, can attain NRD but only a select few have the soundness and temperament to take on All Age (even in the hands of an experienced trainer which I'm not) .

I agree, it's just that even the most experienced people don't agree on what those "select few" will look like as a pup. Obviously many, many, people are in the same position as you, they want to choose the "pick of the litter" for whatever task they have in mind, there have been all sorts of test devised, clapping you hands to see which ones have steady nerves, seeing which one shows the most interest in a quail wing, walking away from the litter and seeing which one will follow etc. There just doesn't seem to be many really experienced people that think this testing makes much/any difference.

Cosmolo, I think you're speaking sense when you suggest walking away from a litter if there isn't a pup with high drive and trainability. I was doing my calculations recently and worked out it takes around 1000 hours minimum of training to make a RTCh - that's alot of time to waste on a second rate dog...

Here we are in HIGH agreement. Winning trials isn't easy, you have to beat every other dog there on the day, and there are some bloody good dogs/handlers out there, don't make it any harder for yourself by getting a dog that doesn’t have the instinct and desire to do the work.

There was a thread on this topic recently on Australian Working Retriever Central, HERE, basically the consensus was to get a lab pup from the right litter. If I wanted to win RTs I'd follow that advice. I've seen some working FCs in OZ, if I were after a working FC, I guess I'd get one from these folk.

[Working_Setters]

I think the point is that if you pick the right litter, it doesn't much matter which pup you get, so long as the pup is somewhere in the "normal range", it's what you do with the pup that matters.

I was told the exact same thing by the most successful breeder of working setters in the south pacific, and they were being serious.

This may be odd, but I think it is relevant. Your question reminded me of a story I heard about a sheepdog person. When asked how he would choose a pup from a litter, his response was "I'd take the one no-one else wanted".

When I heard the story, it made me think...Now I am in a different place & I totally agree with his sentiments.

Anyone care to guess the point?

[country joe]

All pups go up and down.

You go there when the most active, friendly pup has a pain in the belly you will miss out on picking it.

You have picked the right litter,the right breeders and told them what you are looking for in a pup.

Then get them to guide you in the right direction.

This is what I have done with both Flatcoats.

Seeing pups twice in 7 or 8 weeks doesn't give you the overall picture of the litter.

I don't believe for one minute with a Flatcoat its all about drive. I believe it's about balance and biddibility.

Country Joe.

[Vickie]

I think the point is that if you pick the right litter, it doesn't much matter which pup you get, so long as the pup is somewhere in the "normal range", it's what you do with the pup that matters.

I was told the exact same thing by the most successful breeder of working setters in the south pacific, and they were being serious.

This may be odd, but I think it is relevant. Your question reminded me of a story I heard about a sheepdog person. When asked how he would choose a pup from a litter, his response was "I'd take the one no-one else wanted".

When I heard the story, it made me think...Now I am in a different place & I totally agree with his sentiments.

Anyone care to guess the point?

SPOT ON WS! If you know what is behind the pup, for at least a couple of generations & it is everything you want, it shouldn't matter which one you pick.

I guess if there was some sort of major outcross done to correct something, then you would expect to see some variation and the choice may become important, but as otehrs have said...pups can change from one week to the next. I saw a really dramatic change in a pup once & it didn't happen until around 7 weeks. She was very nondescript till 6 weeks & ended up being the highest drive from 7 weeks on. She came from a consistent litter, so there is not a huge variation in them as adults. I think the old nature V nuture argument comes in here as well in a big way. A lot is going to depend on how they are raised & how good a trainer you are. Since it would be virtually impossible for any of us normal people to raise 2 pups the same (and would we want to?) how could we ever make absolute statements?

I am raising a pup at the moment, she has a different temperament to my older dog, even though they are bred from the same lines. She will be better, because I am better. Although their temperaments are different, they are both consistently bred with the same essential qualities that are important to my breed. I don't expect her to be perfect, I'm just going to do the best I can to make sure she is as good as I can make her.

[Sardog]

I must totally agree with CJ on this. :rolleyes:

The breeder is with the litter from beginning to end and if you are looking for working stock then they are the best judges.

As CJ said, they change from week to week and the breeder is able to monitor this.

The high drive is not the most important aspect, you do need biddibility and balance to be able to harness the drive into the direction of your chosen field.

Over the years I have had "hit and miss" not only with my own but with others I have been involved with but you put it all down to experience and learn from that.

[Kelpie-i]

When we got our first Kelpie years ago, we mistakenly chose the pup based on his drive....wow what a mistake that was!!

We ended up with a dog we could barely control and had so much instinctual aggression, that even as dog trainers, we were faced with enourmous challenges each day. This dog was returned to the breeder a year later and after some extremely firm training, was sold at Casterton Auction for $5000 for his cattle working abiltiies.

Our next Kelpies were chosen based on their interaction with us as well as their demeanour over a couple of weeks before taking them away from their litter. We were well aware of their parents and therefore were well versed on their possible temperaments and characteristics. They have both turned out to be exceptional workers and lovely natured dogs as well.

It is extremely difficult to predict the personality/working ability of a pup, so I suppose in this case, it would be the breeder who knows better.

Having said that however, I know of a breeder who had given up on a particular puppy as she wasn't showing any interest in the sheep as a young pup. Along with her new owners, this dog has now collected 5 ribbons, including 3 wins at trials.

Edited December 21, 2006 by Kelpie-i