dogdude Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 For a long time now I have thought about the irrelevance of some of the exersises used in obedience trialling. Some of them like the broad jump, directed jumping and possibly retrieve dont seem to me to be very usefull exercises to learn in a modern society. Perhaps you disagree? A trial is supposed to be a showcase for a dog that fits into society What would you add if you were designing a trial with modern society in mind? Seek car keys? :D Would you keep them the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 (edited) Oooh - one of my pet topics!! :D Firstly, the rules state quite clearly that no training aids are allowed in the ring. I can't take treats or a ball in but another trainer can have their dog wearing a check chain for on lead heeling. I say all dogs have to compete wearing flat collars only. The general vibe seems to be that the higher the level of obedience test, the less distractions the dogs should get. UD gets the fenced ring or the quiet ring. I say reverse that.. better trained dogs should be tested against higher levels of distraction. I know UD dogs who do perfect recalls under trialling conditions but fail to immediately return to their handler otherwise - what a joke. I think the new CCD class has it about right for practical things. I don't necessarily agree that higher classes should offer "practical" exercises - it's a sport after all. However, I fail to see the point of out of sight stays in two positions... one is enough. Oh, one thing I reckon would encourage handlers would be a written score sheet with judges comments. They do this in official dressage tests. All the judge needs is a steward to pencil for them. Sorry - back to the question. For a "practical" obedience test, I'd be looking at basing it on exercises similar to the Delta Canine Good Citizen test. Dog heels through people, demonstrates control and appropriate response to common every day things like being greeted etc. Edited December 14, 2006 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 they may not be practical things but i still like teaching them i think the ccd should have been more along the lines of the cgc i'd like to see rally introduced I watched a dvd fron the uk in that they retrieved toys instead of a dumbell I agree with poodle fan why can you take your check chain in the ring a reminder of correction and touch the dogs ears a reminder of a pinch and yes i have seen this done but not be allowed to take their reward in the ring maybe not use it but be allowed to have it on you. Down here we are constanly reminded not to leave toys and treat bags rigt outside the rng but then the chains are one all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 dogdude one thing in favour of the exercises like jumping and retrieving is that for most dogs, they are enjoyable. One of the bugbears of the old Novice (in addition to two heeling patterns. :D was that there were no self rewarding exercises for the dogs. I say keep jumping and retrieving.. but yes, I'd be thrilled if they'd let the dogs retrieve a ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Though i like the idea of doing the cgc stuff it would get boring week after week retrieveing and scent work jumping are more fun to teach and challenging for the dogs thatn saying hello to a stranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted December 14, 2006 Author Share Posted December 14, 2006 Hi Poodlefan Yeah, I would love to be given a score card with comments attached. The only trouble I could see with that maybe is a differece of opinion and possibly arguments? The UD guys get put through first because of the scent exercises. They dont want other dogs fouling the ring or putting a miriad of scent all over the ring. I agree though, they are at a higher level. The point made regarding check chains is a sticky one. I think that the judges would prefer a good level of control available if needed, ecspecially for the lower classes, but also, you get penalised if you make a correction anyway. There is no advantage above CCD anyway because they are off lead. Maybe they should think about adding an exersise like bringing in the washing from the line? My dog is an expert :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 I'd be thrilled if they'd let the dogs retrieve a ball Moss (BC) would collect his and the one off the stewards table in the next ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Dogdude: There is no advantage above CCD anyway because they are off lead. They ain't off lead at any level when they enter the ring and go to the start peg. That's when the lead comes off. Don't think for a moment that some ringwise handlers don't use the opportunity for some last minute "tuning up" before they are being judged.\ The facts are that the rules that "no training aids in the ring". A check chain is a training aid. If it applies to my rubber ball, it should apply to a fellow competitor's check chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Oooh - one of my pet topics!! :D Firstly, the rules state quite clearly that no training aids are allowed in the ring. I can't take treats or a ball in but another trainer can have their dog wearing a check chain for on lead heeling. I say all dogs have to compete wearing flat collars only. How right you are! I'd never thought of the check chain like that in the ring situation. Funny how something can be right in front of your face.... I'd love to see rally-o introduced too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted December 14, 2006 Author Share Posted December 14, 2006 Poodlefan I suppose there is always going to be someone that stretch the rules, like some positive trainers leaving food or scent in the pocket ! :D WMR I think only people that dont know what they are doing would use the ear ploy. The ear pinch should be used in the teaching of the FR, not a general correction method. No wonder the dog you are talking about is hand shy during the giving up of the dumbell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 dogdude: I suppose there is always going to be someone that stretch the rules, like some positive trainers leaving food or scent in the pocket ! The sad fact dogdude is that giving your dog a couple of pops on the check chain or even merely rattling the links on the way to the start peg isn't "stretching the rules".. its perfectly legal. In training terms its the equivalent of me tossing the rubber ball into the air on the way to the peg and shoving it in my pocket. It's unfair... and disadvantages those who train using more positive methods. Don't even get me started on the disadvantages of trialling a small dog in comparison to "traditional obedience breeds" .. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted December 14, 2006 Author Share Posted December 14, 2006 (edited) Poodle fan I can now fully see your point. There is no reason why a dog that is supposed to be at trialling level should need one at all. I personally walk my dog in a flat collar. :D I also think that it would be great to do say small dog group stays and large dog ones. What other problems do you have with small breeds? Edited December 14, 2006 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 I've always thought it was weird that you are encouraged to talk to your dog in training but in the ring have to become silent. So to be able to talk more during exercises would be good. For more lifestyle stuff you could have going to your mat, nice eating manners, meet and greet, going through a gate politely, vet examination etc I had a go at Rally-O at my clubs Xmas break-up! It was fun and would be a great training exercise. I got rather dizzy though! My older dog can't jump due to an injury but lovvesss working so it would be nice to have something to do with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 I agree with the chain theory, even just having the dog wearing the collar is a training aid, even if it is not being used to correct I'd love to have things like find the car keys and retrieve the ball in trials! :D Make it all relevant to day to day life, and still requires the same amount of training to complete! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted December 14, 2006 Author Share Posted December 14, 2006 Hi JulesP The reason for chat being banned in the ring is because reinforcment commands can be taught using any word. This would be classed as a double command. Shoey It would be great if most of the dogs at trialling level did not need a collar. Looking at a recent trial 2 weeks ago, I can see why they do need them :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 actually dd you'd be surprised the ear pinchers are soem of the highest scoring dogs around they are very experienced handlers and use it very much to their advantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 (edited) Dogdude: I also think that it would be great to do say small dog group stays and large dog ones. What other problems do you have with small breeds? OK dogdude... now that you've asked: *Being pinged for "exaggerated cues" because I bend to give the down cue at knee level... if Mr Kafoop's Golden Retriever can have the cue given in front of its muzzle, why can't my Toy Poodle? It doesn't help of course that I'm tall. I've challenged a couple of big dog owning obedience judges to give the down cue to my dog... they can't do it without bending either. :D * A small dog heeling 8 inches to the side or behind the ideal looks far more out of position than a large dog - and the scores tend to reflect that. Judges don't seem to understand that my dog wants to see my face as much as the big dogs. * Many small dogs are doing blind send aways to the box because grass height and closeness to the ground means they actually can't see the box. Same goes for dumbells for retrieve on the flat. * We littlies get the same length heel pattern from most judges as the GSD and GR's do... how many extra paces of heel work do you think my dog is doing? How many paces extra to get to the box, do the seek back etc?? * Judges wanting to do daft things like kneel next to the littlies for exams. They tend to crowd them a lot more too. Have a chat to someone who trials a small dog. In addition to the myriad of "when are you going to get a real dog" comments from fellow competitors (and occasionally from judges" they do face some challenges in comparison to larger dogs. Edited December 14, 2006 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 i lso tink we need more matches where epople can enter and trian in the ring no prizes also i think dogs should have to obtaina pass in a trial class at club level before venturing out into the trial world help keep away some of those just thought i'd give it a go with a dog that isnt ready leave leads on in stays just have them dangling so dogs are easier to grab if they break and soemthing definately nees to be donw about the stays coz latly tere are two many breaking dogs maybe veen tethered on light lines in the ccd and cd so if they break they cant actaully interfere with other dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 The sad fact dogdude is that giving your dog a couple of pops on the check chain or even merely rattling the links on the way to the start peg isn't "stretching the rules".. its perfectly legal. In training terms its the equivalent of me tossing the rubber ball into the air on the way to the peg and shoving it in my pocket. It's unfair... and disadvantages those who train using more positive methods. Marg Jackson used to say that one motivator that you take into the ring is your lead. If your dog plays tug with the lead, then what is to stop you having a bit of a tug as you go in and in CCG playing between excersises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheres my rock Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 i agree Pf the judges that come toward my littlie already crouched with arms hanging like an ape and yes hadn signals it aint extended just because its a long was down to your dogs face Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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