Obedience Training Before Show Training?

[OZ Grooming World]

I have a 5 month old border collie male puppy, and plan to show him. Some one said he should have obedience training before any show training, is that correct, or if there are any showing training for puppies? I am in Hurstville Sydney.

Thank you!

Tony

[dogdude]

Hi T.N

There are a couple of simple things that you need to teach a show dog, but its mostly about socialisation. What you should be thinking about is preparing him for life after the show ring. If you train for formal obedience, you will cover all bases, including a future obedience trial prospect. Most importantly, you will have a dog that fits into society.

Some things you need to teach a dog for conformation shows is handling genitals (if male) and getting the dog to look forward while gating. Obedience is different as the dog should ideally look at the handler for cues as to what we want.

[OZ Grooming World]

Hi T.N

There are a couple of simple things that you need to teach a show dog, but its mostly about socialisation. What you should be thinking about is preparing him for life after the show ring. If you train for formal obedience, you will cover all bases, including a future obedience trial prospect. Most importantly, you will have a dog that fits into society.

Some things you need to teach a dog for conformation shows is handling genitals (if male) and getting the dog to look forward while gating. Obedience is different as the dog should ideally look at the handler for cues as to what we want.

Many thanks for your opinion!

I found it is hard to teach my dog look forward, as he always looking around to find anything that fits his mouth, most of time he walks slowly than me, and even stops.

[MonElite]

Tony Ill answer your pm to me in here, the info might be usefull for other people as well.

Most obiedience clubs close for summer, the Peakhurst club where I instruct goes back first week of March, I think the Sutherland club might be starting in Feb same with Centenial Park (not sure, ahvent been there for ages)

As for the show training I sugest you contact Luci Ellem, she advertises in the Canine Journal. If you are not a member of Dogs NSW you will need to become one if you want to show your puppy.

Also contact the Border Collie club, they might as well have show classes at Erskine Park ( the main Canine activities complex)

I ahve attended couple of classes with the Rottie club there and seen that kattle dog club had their training on the same night.

rottie club takes other breeds as well, and wednesday and reddog21 will give you all the info you will need about taht. From memory they start again on the 12.01.07 7pm show training 7.30 obiedience training.

Kavik was telling me about her club at Homebush - Im considering going there as well as they open back a lot earlier than Peakhurst.

The Peakhurst club is targeting pet owners that want a well behaved dog, we teach walking on loose lead, recall and basic other comands, there are 5 levels and you progress at your own pace, you are given a set of instructions to follow at home and its up to you what you put in and how fast or how slow you progress through the classes. Few instructors there also trial their dogs so if you ever what to trail the dog they will be able to direct you a bit as well. I think Im the only one that shows my dog, so you can ask me questions as well, but Im a pretty hopeless show handler and need improvements myself.

You also have an option of getting some lessons from prefessional trainers such as K9 Force that is a memeber of this board, or Steve Austin at Harnob. I have never been to Harnob so cant tell you about personal experiences. but form what I understand they run group classes there no idea who actially takes the class.

All of the above varies significantly in price and, what usually goes with, it quality of service.

Alternativelly if you are a nice guy you can come over to my place - my friend and I will be training weekly most likely on Tuesdays. We both have dobes.

Also sasjeep (with GSD) was looking for some partners in crime of dog training, so maybe we can form our own self sufficient tiny "club" for the summer and maybe beyond.

Jsut dont make me a president pls :D

I am a bit puzzled tho at your other post where you ask about info re becoming a dog trainer, do you mean becoming a trainer for your own dog or doing some work with other peoples dogs?

[OZ Grooming World]

Tony Ill answer your pm to me in here, the info might be usefull for other people as well.

Most obiedience clubs close for summer, the Peakhurst club where I instruct goes back first week of March, I think the Sutherland club might be starting in Feb same with Centenial Park (not sure, ahvent been there for ages)

As for the show training I sugest you contact Luci Ellem, she advertises in the Canine Journal. If you are not a member of Dogs NSW you will need to become one if you want to show your puppy.

Also contact the Border Collie club, they might as well have show classes at Erskine Park ( the main Canine activities complex)

I ahve attended couple of classes with the Rottie club there and seen that kattle dog club had their training on the same night.

rottie club takes other breeds as well, and wednesday and reddog21 will give you all the info you will need about taht. From memory they start again on the 12.01.07 7pm show training 7.30 obiedience training.

Kavik was telling me about her club at Homebush - Im considering going there as well as they open back a lot earlier than Peakhurst.

The Peakhurst club is targeting pet owners that want a well behaved dog, we teach walking on loose lead, recall and basic other comands, there are 5 levels and you progress at your own pace, you are given a set of instructions to follow at home and its up to you what you put in and how fast or how slow you progress through the classes. Few instructors there also trial their dogs so if you ever what to trail the dog they will be able to direct you a bit as well. I think Im the only one that shows my dog, so you can ask me questions as well, but Im a pretty hopeless show handler and need improvements myself.

You also have an option of getting some lessons from prefessional trainers such as K9 Force that is a memeber of this board, or Steve Austin at Harnob. I have never been to Harnob so cant tell you about personal experiences. but form what I understand they run group classes there no idea who actially takes the class.

All of the above varies significantly in price and, what usually goes with, it quality of service.

Alternativelly if you are a nice guy you can come over to my place - my friend and I will be training weekly most likely on Tuesdays. We both have dobes.

Also sasjeep (with GSD) was looking for some partners in crime of dog training, so maybe we can form our own self sufficient tiny "club" for the summer and maybe beyond.

Jsut dont make me a president pls ;)

I am a bit puzzled tho at your other post where you ask about info re becoming a dog trainer, do you mean becoming a trainer for your own dog or doing some work with other peoples dogs?

Hi myszka, thank you for your answer, very appreciated!

I think I could join Sutherland Club this Sunday morning in its last training class in 2006, to have a idea of the training class. after the New Year Holiday, I will take my dog to Luci Ellem as you and many friends recommended.

I would like to join your group, and I am very glad to be invited, lol~...... please give me some detail, such as when, where......, thank you!

I have 2 border collies, one is black and white male 5 month old (Gino), and the other is choc and white female 3 month old (Ellie). also, I am going to have the third one which is black and white female 2 month old (Pepsi). I think Gino is suitable for show, Ellie is mainly for agility and Pepsi is show level puppy, so she will be show as well. I do not know about dog training skills much, so currently I'd like to be a dog trainer for my dogs, but also I would like to be a good dog trainer for peoples dogs in all areas, show, agility, tracking, frisby..., however, this would be so easy but needs long time experience and knowledge accumulation. Some people recommend me to have Long Distance Dog Trainer Course which is based in Melbourne, but I'd like to have such course locally. What do you recommend?

Thank you again! have a good weekend!

Tony

[MissMonaro]

One thing to be careful of....in obedience training you are taught that your dog must automatically sit when you halt. This can become a problem in the show ring.

What we do with our youngsters is we take them to obedience training for socialisation and lead training.....we do explain to the instructor that the pup is to be shown and as such we will not be teaching to automatically sit to start with.....and we train them to stand when we come to a halt. When they are a bit older we then go back to teaching automatic sits....its a bit backwards, but my daughters dog made it to class 4 by the time she was a year old doing this method.

Another thing we do is all my dogs are taught to sit before they eat...now thats okay..but the problem comes when I use bait in the show ring....the dogs will sit for their treat from me...... So you have to teach them a special command for the show ring so they can learn the difference from the start.

But anyway, all my dogs are obedience trained. Our Bull terrier miniature has just obtained her Aust Champ title and so now we have just started obedience training with her....a different approach from how we do it with our gun dogs. (we start them at obedience as soon as they are old enough).

Good luck !!!

[MonElite]

Tony I recmend that you start with Triangle of tempatation (pinned subject here by K9)

May I ask why do you want 3 very young dogs? That is a difficult thing to manage, two will be a handfull, 3 - I wouldnt.........

[Sayreovi]

Really once your dogs are older, they can tell the difference between a show ring and obedience ring. With puppies use a difference collar for show training like a snake chain and a flat for obedience, they will know its different and know what they can and cant do.

Besides if they are pups they can screw around a bit

[shoemonster]

Hi T.N

There are a couple of simple things that you need to teach a show dog, but its mostly about socialisation. What you should be thinking about is preparing him for life after the show ring. If you train for formal obedience, you will cover all bases, including a future obedience trial prospect. Most importantly, you will have a dog that fits into society.

Some things you need to teach a dog for conformation shows is handling genitals (if male) and getting the dog to look forward while gating. Obedience is different as the dog should ideally look at the handler for cues as to what we want.

Slightly OT sorry

How important is it for them to look forward when gaiting? I am working so much on focus in heeling that i'm worried to start trying to get him gaiting and looking forward

[Sayreovi]

Shoemonster, if they arent looking forward instead trying to look at your face then it completely stuffs up their gait and he would look horrid.

I would imagine you would say heel and then try and get Eddies attention? In the ring you wouldnt say heel so there is no need for him to pay attention too you as he would in obedience.

[shoemonster]

Yeah good point

I've just been reading up on gaiting and its making more sense to me now! I'm such a noob sometimes! lol

[shoemonster]

So the article I was reading mentions holding the arm out to the side in gaiting so the dog knows the difference, which makes alot of sense

All these new things to learn lol

I'm going to get to show training soon too so I can be ready for shows next year

Sorry Tony!

[Sayreovi]

LOL We all start somewhere! Good luck with your shows next year.

[shoemonster]

Thanks!

[OZ Grooming World]

Tony I recmend that you start with Triangle of tempatation (pinned subject here by K9)

May I ask why do you want 3 very young dogs? That is a difficult thing to manage, two will be a handfull, 3 - I wouldnt.........

because I just like border collie very much, I got Gino first and I think he is very lonely so planned to have another one, so that they could play together. The planned one has not got to my house yet until this Xmas, but one month ago, another breeder who I contacted before emailed me, said she has one choc female pup left, so I decided to take her. Thats why I have 2 now and going to have 3.

I know it is quite unusual to have 3 young pup at the same time, and very difficult for taking care of them. I'd like to take response, try me best to give them best welfare.

What time do you think is the best time for showing the dog? I mean at which age.

Thank you!

Tony

[OZ Grooming World]

One thing to be careful of....in obedience training you are taught that your dog must automatically sit when you halt. This can become a problem in the show ring.

What we do with our youngsters is we take them to obedience training for socialisation and lead training.....we do explain to the instructor that the pup is to be shown and as such we will not be teaching to automatically sit to start with.....and we train them to stand when we come to a halt. When they are a bit older we then go back to teaching automatic sits....its a bit backwards, but my daughters dog made it to class 4 by the time she was a year old doing this method.

Another thing we do is all my dogs are taught to sit before they eat...now thats okay..but the problem comes when I use bait in the show ring....the dogs will sit for their treat from me...... So you have to teach them a special command for the show ring so they can learn the difference from the start.

But anyway, all my dogs are obedience trained. Our Bull terrier miniature has just obtained her Aust Champ title and so now we have just started obedience training with her....a different approach from how we do it with our gun dogs. (we start them at obedience as soon as they are old enough).

Good luck !!!

Do you mean that you recommend to start showing training first and then obedience training?

but some one said you are never wanna a dog in the show is not listen to you, so obedience training is before show training and is the basis.

[MissMonaro]

Do you mean that you recommend to start showing training first and then obedience training?

We actually start both at pretty much the same time with our labradors. Well obedience cant be started until they are 4 months of age at my club anyway.

But at obedience we dont teach our show dogs to do an automatic sit when you come to a halt, until they are older.

Border collies are smart dogs.

Our bull terrier wasnt started at obedience until her showing was out the way, because she's not very focused at the best of times.

[Rebanne]

coming from an obedience background I don't have a problem with training an automatic sit while also competing in the show ring. You just need to put a name on your stack and use it as you come to a halt. No different to telling your dog to stand or drop while in the heeling exercise. And I'm not a fan of the head wrap around style in obedience either. My GSD's seemed to have no trouble watching me out of the corner of their eye while looking ahead

[MonElite]

I know it is quite unusual to have 3 young pup at the same time, and very difficult for taking care of them. I'd like to take response, try me best to give them best welfare.

Its not the walfare of the dog, Im sure you will provide a wonderfull home, but how will you train three young puppies? Do you work?

If they play together they will want to play with each other, rather than with you..............

As for showing - the best age for the dog to win in the ring is probably between 2 and 4 years of age, but they need to be trained how to behave in the ring.

My pupps first show was at about 4 months old.

[OZ Grooming World]

I know it is quite unusual to have 3 young pup at the same time, and very difficult for taking care of them. I'd like to take response, try me best to give them best welfare.

Its not the walfare of the dog, Im sure you will provide a wonderfull home, but how will you train three young puppies? Do you work?

If they play together they will want to play with each other, rather than with you..............

As for showing - the best age for the dog to win in the ring is probably between 2 and 4 years of age, but they need to be trained how to behave in the ring.

My pupps first show was at about 4 months old.

;) Sorry I wrote "response" instead of "responsibility". Yes, it is quite hard for me, but things seem better now, as Gino the oldest one is become mature and I feel he has become more obedient. He sometimes listens to me. My wife and I both love dogs, and now we have chance to have our own dogs, so we do not want to lose this chance. I mean we are in Australia and living without any restrictions from our parents, lol~... I am not saying parents are not good... but really saying Australia is a wonderful place for both people and animals. btw, we are from China, and I am a student here in Sydney Uni, and my wife is on student dependent visa, we have lots of time to look after our lovely kids, but still need you and many other dog lovers to help us, as we really do not know much about dogs.

This morning we took Gino to Sutherland Shire Dog Training Centre, and met many many new friends including Mrsdog, they gave us great knowledge and both we and Gino had a good time.

Thank you!

Regards,

Tony