A Thread In Rescue Section

[Kirty]

I was the OP in the rescue forum and I did cross post it in this forum too when the situation first arose. I have not heard back from the woman so I am assuming the dog was PTS.

I did not post asking for advice on whether I should take the dog in to be rehomed, as that was not an option for me (living with in-laws at the moment). I also did not really want advice on what she should do, because the husband had already made up his mind. The only thing I was hoping for was someone to offer to take the dog and whether people saw him as rehomeable. That was his only chance. The husband was not going to get more behaviouralists out because the one he did get out (who was recommended by the vet he trusts) said the dog had no hope.

None of us know what the behaviouralist saw and whether he was any good. My gut feeling is he was useless, but who knows, maybe he saw something that the owners didn't when he visited.

The thread got deleted before I could finish reading all the bitchiness but any offer was too late for the poor dog.

[Erny]

With reference to Cosmolo's most recent post (above) .... I agree. Just have a look at the hundreds of threads in training where professional trainers have given advice ... for FREE. And that's only what you SEE HERE. There are countless communications made direct by myself and others to OP's by way of PM's that are not visible. Not to mention other "freebies" for people who aren't even DOL members/participants ;).

My last post on the thread that was deleted was suggesting that it would be lovely if I could expect AND RECEIVE a FREE Landscaping Service, or FREE licensed plumber service, or FREE qualified electrician service the same way trainers/behaviourists are expected to apply their expertise for free. No ..... we don't HAVE to respond to posts, but we do because we CARE for the dog and the dog's owner (after all, they both go hand in hand). The abuse that was dished out and disdainful comments made and/or alluded to in that thread was uncalled for and IMO FAR from helpful to any dog or person - both the ones who were the subject of that thread and others who will in all liklihood follow it.

If anyone out there is a knowledgeable and reputable landscaper by trade, I don't mind if I don't like the way you might speak. Nor will I go out of my way to misinterpret it. If you'll do my landscaping for free, that is ........................ :p

Edited December 13, 2006 by Erny

[Erny]

... the husband had already made up his mind. The only thing I was hoping for was someone to offer to take the dog and whether people saw him as rehomeable

Hi Kirty.

Yes. Sad. But even asking for advice as to whether he is rehomeable demands a behaviourist consultation. The only behaviourist who can answer that question honestly and with regards to safety issues, is the behaviourist who did or does the consult. Whether this dog's owners did the right thing by all (including the dog) or not will probably now always remain to be seen. But at least you attempted to do something to assist the dog. At the end of the day, though, owners' co-operation is required and where a person's mind is "already made up" makes it difficult to sort anything out.

ETA: Kirty - my post (above) is not directed at you as I know you did not expect free consultations. It is only brought up as a result of the insult delivered by a number when free behaviour advice was proferred.

Edited December 13, 2006 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

;) for Erny's post. Couldn't have said it better.

[Sayreovi]

So you would be willing to take a dog that has lunged at and if it had not been intercepted would have harmed a child?

Considering you take quite large dogs i would hate to think you would rehome one that has done so.

Perhaps i misworded, some would help but they wouldnt take the dog. I meant to say take not help.

Yes tollers.

Anatolian Rescue is willing / does takes / has taken / is taking dogs that have been described by their owners as doing the above.

Please, if thinking of their rehoming causes you trouble, then dont.

It does concern me actually that someone would rehome a dog known to try and attack a child.

What happens if that dog bites a child then?

Were the potential adopters aware that the said dog had behaved aggressively towards a person?

I admire you for rescuing dogs and finding them good homes, but why would you take a people aggressive dog known for trying to attack instead of another nice friendly dog that urgently needed a home?

Did you find it hard to rehome these dogs?

I apologize for all the questions but it truly does confuse me as too why you would considering the reasons people sue now a days.

Cosmolo, not sure if you post was directed at me or not but i assure you that mine was certainly not directed at you ;)

[Kelpie-i]

Amen Erny....on all accounts!

Kirty you did the best you could to try and save that dog and for that you should be commended. I am sorry there wasn't much anybody could do to help in the end.

I am totally disgusted at the treatment given to K9, who whilst trying to help, was bombarded with abuse by ignorant and deplorable human beings. These same people read his posts and ask him questions about his methods and gain from his knowledge. I believe an apology from them would be in order.

As for giving free advice over the net, I stopped doing that long ago when I too was abused for trying to help.

I only hope that the family are happy with whatever choice they have decided to make.

[jaybeece]

No ..... we don't HAVE to respond to posts, but we do because we CARE for the dog and the dog's owner (after all, they both go hand in hand). The abuse that was dished out and disdainful comments made and/or alluded to in that thread was uncalled for and IMO FAR from helpful to any dog or person - both the ones who were the subject of that thread and others who will in all liklihood follow it.

100% agree Erny, as usual you've worded things well ;) I've learnt a HUGE amount about dog behaviour and training tips due to folks such as yourself and K9 being generous with your time and knowledge. These forums would be a much poorer place without your collective insights and opinions.

Please keep up the good work and don't let childish, ungrateful people deter you from helping those in need of advice.

[wolfgirl]

I missed the other thread so didn't get to read all the nastiness that went on, I also second what jaybeece has commented on, I find a wealth of information here and appreciate the fact that so many knowledgeable people are willing to give of their time so freely. Erny's posts are always worth reading and quite often I find myself nodding my head in agreeance but don't have quite the way with words that Erny manages to convey her messages through so I keep my fingers still. I also admire K9 for his wealth of knowledge and enjoy reading people's praise to those he has helped, yet to meet him as I was away last time he was in Melbourne but I look forward to him coming back and being able to watch and listen to him in action.

It's a shame that we can't show a certain amount of respect when replying to things we don't quite agree on, we are all entitled to our own opinions but at the same time I think everyone should treat other people how they would like to be treated and it makes for much more pleasant reading. ;)

Just my 2 cents worth anyway.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: I just read the last few pages and am quite put off about the attitude of some to a professonal trainer offering assistance and opinion. I realise this is not the fault of the OP but i would be disgusted if i offered help and was treated like that. I respect most people involved in rescue but would want to get some respect in return for my knowledge and expertise.

K9: 100% agree with you there.. All I was trying to do is help the dog....

I guess many of them have put a dog down or recommended someone do so, so me turning up with information that compromises what they say or have done, probably doesnt go down to well.. However, it wasn mean to be about stepping on toes, it was mean to be about the dog...

Any of you guys who have worked with me will have heard me sa how I have made all the mistakes in the world, all on the way to getting better..

C: I would be willing to put up my hand to do an assessment if the dog is still alive if the location is not too far away.

K9: I was asked to comment by someone who read the thread, I just clicked a link.. In my first posts, I didnt realise I was in the rescue forum, but did wonder about the absence of educated opinions lets say...

I know if this had been in the training forum you guys would have helped...

30 Minutes with Erny, Cosmolo or Kelpie -I (or a few others here) would have had a definitive answer....

T: The only person who offered got attacked and degraded, certainly puts off helping in future doesnt it?

K9: More than that, makes me question why I would ever post advice here again...

T: no rescue would even consider helping a dog that has lunged at a child regardless of why it did. The only real chance the dog had was in here.

K9: Maybe not "no rescue" but not many would... I always wonder why when so many dogs come good in minutes....

C: But i would also like to point out that many trainers and behaviourists are far from 'stingey' when it comes to helping out those in need. However we can't help everyone for free- not just because of $$ but also due to time constraints.

E: Just have a look at the hundreds of threads in training where professional trainers have given advice ... for FREE. And that's only what you SEE HERE. There are countless communications made direct by myself and others to OP's by way of PM's that are not visible. Not to mention other "freebies" for people who aren't even DOL members/participants

K9: Something else about this work is that you never stop learning, which means it never stops costing you.. I spend thousands each year on books, videos, seminars & I know you guys do too..

I donate time, lessons, consults, equipment etc plus forums & yahoo lists all for no gain at all... There has to be a limit though....

K: As for giving free advice over the net, I stopped doing that long ago when I too was abused for trying to help.

K9: I agree with you, but I guess there are so many genuine people out there its hard to let a few ruin it for everyone... But I can tell you I pos a LOT less here han used to.

I would also like to say that I do read other trainers posts here, & I do get something out of them, a different perspective sometimes, another view, a great idea or two, so we all gain...

Edited December 13, 2006 by K9 Force

[BJean]

It does concern me actually that someone would rehome a dog known to try and attack a child.

What happens if that dog bites a child then?

Most of the Anatolians that come to AR needing rehoming with aggression / behaviour issues are the result of their environment that they were brought up in.

ie: owner with the wrong breed of dog.

Dog is too big, dog won't listen, dog challenges, dog is too much, dog jumps on the kids, dog runs through the door, dog won't get up when told to, dog growls when eating food, dog growls on the lead....

There's a lot of scenarios where a dog can 'try to attack a child'

If the dog hasn't been raised properly, a child trying to remove the dog off the bed could result in an incident; if the dog considers an area of the yard 'his' a child entering that area could result in an incident.

Were the potential adopters aware that the said dog had behaved aggressively towards a person?

AR never misrepresents the dogs it rehomes.

Once again the notion 'behaved aggressively' is up for interpretation.

(If a dog has been shown / taught it runs the household, aggressive behaviour is what the dog knows to keep the humans in their place.)

I admire you for rescuing dogs and finding them good homes, but why would you take a people aggressive dog known for trying to attack instead of another nice friendly dog that urgently needed a home?

Because Anatolian Rescue is just that.

It's amazing how 'nice and friendly' these "aggressive dogs known for trying to attack" become when they get away from their owners.

Owners wanted a 'nice friendly dog' and one that would grow BIG and one that would guard.

But the dog grows big so quick. And at six months it challenged the youngest child in the house.

And at six months the dog was too big to stop crashing through the door first. And at six months it was too big to ignore on the furniture any more. And though they took it to 'puppy school' wasn't that enough for its socialisation? Why is it growling at other dogs now? It didn't growl before? But she's a female? Why is she growling at male dogs?

;)

Did you find it hard to rehome these dogs?

I apologize for all the questions but it truly does confuse me as too why you would considering the reasons people sue now a days.

Some ASD's stay in foster care for months. Some are rehomed before they 'arrive'.

Some ASD's have been treated so appallingly that the only option is to pts.

AR has a waiting list for people wanting adult / rescue ASDs. Some are farm homes. Some are family homes. The dogs are placed accordingly. The potential homes are scrutinised.

Anatolian Rescue, rescues and transports dogs Australia-wide, provides veterinary care, rehabilitates, retrains and rehomes these dogs

because we're fanatics.

It trully confuses me

why gits persist

in purchasing dogs they are not suited to.

Edited December 13, 2006 by lilli

[Muttly]

Regarding rehoming dogs with aggression issues, my own PERSONAL thoughts on this are that if you have had an assessment coupled with significant skill in the handler which not all rescues or individual foster carers have (nor should as a prerequisite), worked on a program and at the very worst outcome (as many can be completely rehabilitated) you are aware of the triggers, you are aware of the issues as aggression in my mind is not unpredictable once you know the dog, and have a plan in place to successfully MANAGE the issues and continue working on them over the long term,and can find the appropriate home who will continue that work, then that is feasible. Wow that was a long sentence. It is late....

Handing a dog on that you have not sought professional advice from someone who actually knows what they are doing re/ working with aggression issues (and in my experience that is fewer rather than greater behaviourists), do not have a grasp of the issues, and handing on what you feel is 'unpredictable' is not o.k. at all.

Some dogs sadly cannot be re-homed.

I suspect without the commitment to them required, there is a far greater number being pts than not. Pragmatism re/ cost and time is a feature of rescue that does not see a percentage of dogs given opportunity. And that is sad. Some rescuers simply are unable to afford it and don't have enough skills themselves. I understand totally that there are tens of thousands of dogs dying each year. I would not personally knowingly take on a dog with poor presentation re/ aggression. But once in my care if issues surface, then I have a commitment to that dog. In one case I had to consider that I may have to adopt them myself as the fear aggression issues were going to be to some extent ongoing but managable, and that is a dog that a very small number of people are interested in adopting. But he got his home. They have worked with a behaviourist when needed, and they are marathon runners, so he gets a lot of exercise ;) They have made a number of adjustments about how they are out in public with him and he has a good life and enriches theirs. And in years I feel pretty confident that he will be rehabilitated.

I also feel that we are guardians of these dogs when we rescue them and that involves caring for them as we would our own. I have had three out of about 70-80 odd dogs in my care or with other people looking after them day to day for me, but with their responsibility still resting with me. In each case the three warranted professional intervention, and I remember one of them I emailed K9 about and got some wonderful and free advice which confirmed where I was heading with that dog. At no point in that interaction did I feel condescended to, called 'girl', insulted, and generally abused. Wouldn't expect it would you, and you shouldn't if you go into the rescue forum here and offer advice. But I think that if people feel challenged indirectly and in this case vicariously about their own ethics and whether as guardians the world should be black and white for our dogs.........

[Sayreovi]

Thanks for replying to me lilli without any malice.

I didnt intend my post as accusing if it came across that way, i was truly interested in your responses in case i happen to find a dog of my chosen breeds that had "issues" and how to deal with them.

Steve, please dont stop posting here you have opened mine and several others eyes about training and behaviour and because of you i am able to control Nova now. You have also helped several others so dont let a few idiotic people who degrade you stop you from feeling appreciated because thats far from it!!!

Great post Muttly

Edited December 13, 2006 by tollersowned

[Erny]

As for giving free advice over the net, I stopped doing that long ago when I too was abused for trying to help.

Hi Kelpie-i ;) I've contemplated that too, at times.

K9 Force:

But I can tell you I pos a LOT less here han used to.

I've backed off some, like you, K9. Oh ..... and K9, you're not alone in copping abuse when posting content that is contrary to the strong (and unproved by individual consultation) opinions of others.

ETA: Mind you, there are those others who genuinely appreciate efforts (as I do of others who have helped me in forums such as "Health" and the like and who were of enormous assistance when I needed it with my sick girl) .... I guess it is knowing there are those sort of people out there that keeps me going. :p

Edited December 13, 2006 by Erny

[Kirty]

Thanks for everyone's posts - glad to see it is staying nice for now! I appreciate everyone's inputs and was not asking for free advice (I know nobody has implied that I was). This dogs only option was foster care because the husband wanted it gone.

I have taken in dogs that were said to be 'child aggressive' before (when I was able to take in fosters) but these cases had clear triggers - idiot owners banished the dog from the family as soon as the children appeared, then wondered why the dog hated kids! Once they arrived at my place they were given basic obedience and included as part of the family, and never showed a drop of aggression to my child. However, I still rehomed them to childless homes just in case the problem resurfaced.

Lilli, as a carer for BCRA I feel your pain! I get so many people calling when their dog is between 6-18 months old telling me their dog is 'crazy'. It barks, it digs, it rounds things up, it runs laps of the backyard etc. Then they go on to explain that they work long hours, have a tiny backyard and never walk it. It never ceases to amaze me how stupid some people can be. BC's are working dogs and were bred for intelligence, agility and endurance - so you have a smart dog that can run all day! Yet they still appear shocked when I tell them their dog is just a typical BC.

[Kelpie-i]

Wolfgirl: Erny's posts are always worth reading and quite often I find myself nodding my head in agreeance but don't have quite the way with words that Erny manages to convey her messages

Yes Erny certainly has a way with words. She's also a warm and wonderful person in real life.

K9: I agree with you, but I guess there are so many genuine people out there its hard to let a few ruin it for everyone... But I can tell you I pos a LOT less here han used to.

Such a pity!

I would like to thank all those wonderful trainers/behaviourists out there who have shared their knowledge and training insights with people on this forum. I'm sure I speak for most when I say that we have all learned something from each other.

[Cordelia]

I am totally disgusted at the treatment given to K9, who whilst trying to help, was bombarded with abuse by ignorant and deplorable human beings. These same people read his posts and ask him questions about his methods and gain from his knowledge. I believe an apology from them would be in order.

There'll be no apology. I'm far from ignorant and I don't give a toss if someone thinks I am 'deplorable'. K9 is a big boy and can take care of himself I'm sure.

I have NEVER attacked K9's training methods or him on a professional level and I regularly refer people to him and his website for guidance, and training advice if they have sought advice from me and I can't help them. I have NEVER said k9 has not helped me in the past on the very few occasions where I needed advice or a more experienced opinion on an aggression issue I had trouble dealing with. I was grateful at the time and he knows it. He donated a leather lead which I love and I have a collar that was given to me when he decided to keep Leonard the Lab who came from here. I hardly think that makes me an ingrate for his occasional advice though. He has had several paying clients from my referrals so I think it worked both ways.

Yes, the thread in Rescue went down the toilet but K9 defended his opinion just as I did. Respect goes both ways and everyone is free to disagree but me behaving somewhat childishly doesn't mean that I have no respect for other trainers on this forum because I do hold several trainers here in high regard.

I don't seek advice or ask questions of trainers here very often simply because I don't need to. I DON'T take on dogs with known aggression problems simply because I don't believe they should be returned to the commuity. I have my own safety to think of and that of my family, including my own and my rescue dogs welfare. I have no inclination to put myself in danger of being bitten if it can be avoided. I do deal with low level aggression at times and it is often easily diagnosed and fixed.... if not... then the dog is pts. I don't cause their issues but whilst I am obligated to care for an animal, I am also obligated to prevent an animal that is obviously dangerous from being put back into the community.... and I don't care if there's a trainer who can fix it over time. Time and space is something that has a limit in Rescue. For those who don't have those constraints.... that's great.

There are too many dogs in need of care who DON'T have aggression issues....

[MonElite]

Myszka, why didnt you offer to help?

Tollersowned - I cant teach my dog to heel properly and you are asking me why didnt I offer help for a human agro dog?

Sorry out of my league - just slightly..............

I will put my view of the situation and if Ill step on someones toes - so be it.

Dogs and anything related to them is my biggest hobby and I spend considereable amount of time doing things for dogs themselves or for people that do things for dogs, including those that make their living out of dogs. Trainers here offer heaps of advice to people that need it. They also make a living out of dog training. For people like me dogs are a hobby not my means of survival. To trainers people like me are means of earning the living. So giving free advice its like advertising and promotion.

I dont think that anyone can deny the fact that just like I promote the club that I instruct at, Cordelia promotes her rescue or any trainer here gets business out of posting here.

Re the dog and the timing.

Yes why the OP didnt put this in the training section will be unknown, if it was in here I feel taht things for the dog could have been different. Its sad that noone took the initiative to cross post, or to offer help earlier when it wasnt to late.

I dont think that anyone on this board has ever stoped appreciation of the help of the trainers and professionals that is offered here, including the people involved in the argument yesterday, but when either party is told something that is personally hurtfull or offensive things get heated and its clear that some people will preffer hurting other persons feeling, picking on small words instead of concentrating on the big picture.

And this was the problem shown on both sides of the story..........

[Sayreovi]

Myszka, why didnt you offer to help?

Tollersowned - I cant teach my dog to heel properly and you are asking me why didnt I offer help for a human agro dog?

Sorry out of my league - just slightly..............

Well you saying it took several days for someone to offer, maybe they feel they dont have enough experience to deal with a dog like that or feel like Cordelia does. Too point out that it took such and such time for someone to step forward and help is quite rude.

[Cosmolo]

Myzka, i'd really like to know if the dig about length of time was aimed at me? The fist time i saw the post was when you cross posted it and i offered assistance then. Like i have posted previously, we already help out where we can but we can't be everywhere at once.

I disagree in part that giving free advice is advertising and promotion- sometimes it can be counter productive to the business but i do it because i care about the dog and its owner. The advice given is free and if it helps to resolve the problem, i don't get any business out of that. Giving advice on a public forum also opens us up to misinterpration and misrepresentation which also concerns me so i feel i take a risk in doing so.

[Cordelia]

When you do something professionally (training, grooming, nursing or rescue etc) you instantly open yourself up fpr misinterpretation when you give advice or offer assistance in any way. There is always a risk in doing so. Weighing up that risk... many choose to try helping as best they can.

I've learnt over the years to keep my opinion to myself on certain subjects because it simply isn't worth the crap that can follow... hence why I try not to get involved in threads where my opinion goes against the more emotionally sensitive opinions of others. Sometimes, I don't try so hard not to post because it might just help someone.

Myzka, i'd really like to know if the dig about length of time was aimed at me?

I don't believe that it was Cosmolo.