A Thread In Rescue Section

[~Anne~]

You'll never see an apology from me either quite frankly. It always takes two to tango.... some just tango better then others and some are better at giving the perception they are innocent. I wear my badge out front... I don't hide behind a halo.

As for this forum. I very rarely venture in here and on the rare occassion I have the information given has been so off the ball park and delivered in such a way I may as well not have bothered.

Perhaps I have posted at the wrong time, perhaps it is personal... either way it doens't bother me *shrugs*

Thankfully for me I work with a breed that doesn't give me many issues.

Don't kid yourself K9, you'll never stop posting here. The commercial benefit is far to big for you

As for the dog in the other thread... with all the debating that went on the deal would have been done long before most of us got a little tired of the attitudes in the thread and jumped into it.

[mita]

The thread in question presented a problem being experienced by a family with their dog.

They did not post the problem...someone else did, in order to test the waters on such a situation.

Which means the problem was being presented 'second-hand' (no offence to the person who started the thread...I or anyone else could have done the same thing in a similar situation.)

Which then means, there's no opportunity to ask the affected family further questions to flesh out what the actual details & history are. So , basically, it turned into a discussion where people used their own experience & knowledge...& beliefs...to fill in the considerable gaps. Naturally, there was variety in responses. Thank goodness for that...my broken record is.... if we all thought the same, there'd be no progress.

If someone wants to turn such a discussion into personal warfare, then that person owns that problem (no aspersions on anyone). Only serves to deflect the real issues people want to discuss.

Strong beliefs came from 2 ends...those who strongly felt the issue of child safety was/is the major factor...& those, like K9, who strongly felt that 'unpicking' a/the dog's behaviour was the starting point (while keeping the dog & child separate.)

Having strong beliefs, however, does not mean the holder is automatically 'right'. No, it's simply a strongly held position...among others. (There's something called an Hegelian tragedy...where, in a conflict...two points of view have some degree of 'rightness' about them.)

No need to trigger off personal warfare and/or demeaning other people...which most folk don't do anyway...& didn't do in that thread.

Edited December 14, 2006 by mita

[MonElite]

Myzka, i'd really like to know if the dig about length of time was aimed at me? The fist time i saw the post was when you cross posted it and i offered assistance then. Like i have posted previously, we already help out where we can but we can't be everywhere at once.

I didnt dig. And if anyone considers it was a dig needs to look at the bigger picture again.

so If I was to answer your direct question (although a wrong question to be asked) - no it wasnt directed at you.

There were several people in the thread talking about what should be done or could be done but noone actually did anything nor offered anything. I have found the thread on its 4th day where the dog was most likely dead by than and questioned the exact thing of noone acting. I have also than xposted it here and heaps of people answered than, you including, which was great.

[MonElite]

Well you saying it took several days for someone to offer, maybe they feel they dont have enough experience to deal with a dog like that or feel like Cordelia does.

do you know who was posting in the thread? and what experience they have?

[Erny]

... no it wasnt directed at you. There were several people in the thread talking about what should be done or could be done but noone actually did anything nor offered anything. I have found the thread on its 4th day where the dog was most likely dead by than and questioned the exact thing of noone acting.

Myszka ..... the only person/people who bore responsibility to "do anything" were the dogs' owners. Whether your post was directed to Cosmolo, myself or any other trainer/behaviourist is moot. No-one on the DOL forum is under any obligation (either morally or otherwise) to "DO" anything. Are you suggesting otherwise? If you are, then I suggest you are outside your right to do so. Note that advice was given - just wasn't taken up. If the dog is indeed now dead, that is not the responsibility of anyone other than the dogs' owners and I do not believe the fact should be flagged around as if the people on DOL had any bearing on that responsibility.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Erny

[Sayreovi]

Well you saying it took several days for someone to offer, maybe they feel they dont have enough experience to deal with a dog like that or feel like Cordelia does.

do you know who was posting in the thread? and what experience they have?

Did you not read the maybe? Yes i know who was posting in the other read, i had read every post right up to Troys closing post.

Do you know what experience they have? You were posting it took several days for someone too offer, why were you pushing people to take a dog when maybe they werent qualified to look after it?

It was fairly obvious that very few of those who posted had enough experience and/or time to deal with a people aggressive dog when so many other nice dogs need urgent foster care. No rescue people offered because of that reason, they have enough on their plate at the moment.

[MonElite]

No-one on the DOL forum is under any obligation (either morally or otherwise) to "DO" anything. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Certainly NOT. Especially that help was offered. Just a little bit late, thats all. Pls dont try to read into something that isnt there.

[Erny]

Trainers here ... make a living out of dog training. So giving free advice its like advertising and promotion.

It's not as lucrative as you might suggest, Myszka. In fact criticism I've received for NOT giving FREE advice has only ensued AFTER I STARTED giving FREE advice. It seems that is what most (albeit save for a select couple) now EXPECT. What is the point promoting to a group where the "expertise" is always given away for free? ........ except our own satisfaction and relief for the dog/person concerned, and that's only because we do care. Unfortunately, "caring" doesn't pay all the bills.

Its sad that noone took the initiative to cross post, or to offer help earlier when it wasnt to late.

Again Myszka - it seems that the "flag of blame" is being waved at others. By the sounds of it, this dog was not going to receive a reprieve regardless. And I doubt what was offered or when it was offered would have made the slightest difference either. Regardless, SOME effort would be required by the dog's owners and by all appearances one party in that equation had already made the final decision.

[Erny]

No-one on the DOL forum is under any obligation (either morally or otherwise) to "DO" anything. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Certainly NOT. Especially that help was offered. Just a little bit late, thats all. Pls dont try to read into something that isnt there.

I'm sorry if I am mis-reading, Myszka, but that is how it is very much sounding to me. I am not doing so on purpose.

[MonElite]

why were you pushing people to take a dog when maybe they werent qualified to look after it?

I think you have a wrong perception, I dint push anyone to do anything, and certainly didnt ask anyone to TAKE the dog.

[MonElite]

And I doubt what was offered or when it was offered would have made the slightest difference either.

yes I agree with you, but there is always a bit of hope left in me, I guess I was hanging onto this.

And I feel that this dog death might mean another dogs life.

[Cordelia]

I think that some are taking Myszka's comments too personally. She ISN'T pointing the finger at anyone nor is she blaming anyone for not taking this dog on. She is (and correct me if i am wrong please) just saying that she HOPED someone (or wished someone) could have assisted. She isn't trying to make anyone feel guilty for not helping and she isn't judging anyone.

[MonElite]

Thanks Cordelia, Im glad to see that someone understands what Im trying to say.

Will you be my spokesperson or translator next time I'll need to get involved in a heated discussion?

[Erny]

I think that some are taking Myszka's comments too personally. She ISN'T pointing the finger at anyone nor is she blaming anyone for not taking this dog on. She is (and correct me if i am wrong please) just saying that she HOPED someone (or wished someone) could have assisted. She isn't trying to make anyone feel guilty for not helping and she isn't judging anyone.

Thank you Cordelia. Your "slant" on the interpretation does help. Not to mention the conversation Myszka and I have just had where Myszka has explained in similar terms. I did take these sorts of comments personally and was feeling the "guilt" of the dog's death (assuming it is now ) but resented the perceived suggestion that "we" should do so knowing and understanding that it is doubtful anything I or anyone else could have reasonably done or offered (regardless of timing) would have made any difference. The decision and the responsibility that comes with it, rests with the dogs' owners. All anyone can do is let people know that help is available. At the end, it is up to them as to whether they take up on that or not.

Your explanation (coupled with my private conversation with Myszka) has quelled my stirring emotions in this matter and I trust it will do the same for others who also may have felt the "bone" was being pointed at them. Thanks.

Erny searches for the "peace" emoticon

Edited December 14, 2006 by Erny

[haven]

The thread in question presented a problem being experienced by a family with their dog.

They did not post the problem...someone else did, in order to test the waters on such a situation.

Which means the problem was being presented 'second-hand' (no offence to the person who started the thread...I or anyone else could have done the same thing in a similar situation.)

Which then means, there's no opportunity to ask the affected family further questions to flesh out what the actual details & history are. So , basically, it turned into a discussion where people used their own experience & knowledge...& beliefs...to fill in the considerable gaps. Naturally, there was variety in responses. Thank goodness for that...my broken record is.... if we all thought the same, there'd be no progress.

If someone wants to turn such a discussion into personal warfare, then that person owns that problem (no aspersions on anyone). Only serves to deflect the real issues people want to discuss.

Strong beliefs came from 2 ends...those who strongly felt the issue of child safety was/is the major factor...& those, like K9, who strongly felt that 'unpicking' a/the dog's behaviour was the starting point (while keeping the dog & child separate.)

Having strong beliefs, however, does not mean the holder is automatically 'right'. No, it's simply a strongly held position...among others. (There's something called an Hegelian tragedy...where, in a conflict...two points of view have some degree of 'rightness' about them.)

No need to trigger off personal warfare and/or demeaning other people...which most folk don't do anyway...& didn't do in that thread.

This post should be a sticky IMO

[MonElite]

Erny searches for the "peace" emoticon

here is one from me to you

and few more ;)

[Kirty]

Just to clarify, I DID cross post the thread in the training forum, with the exact same title as the one in the rescue forum, with a link to the thread. :D

See?? http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?showtopic=83353

Edited December 15, 2006 by Kirty