Training A Reliable Recall

[dogdude]

Hi W.S

Point taken, just wouldnt like to see people get this confused with the ear pinch. :D

[wheres my rock]

i must admit when you said tug i was thinking a gentle pop i tug my dogs jowls all the time in play

though i do agree with DD the ears are very sensitive and i know of one dog with nerve damage form having its ear twisted during a forced retrieve training session.

[Working_Setters]

Hi W.S

Point taken, just wouldnt like to see people get this confused with the ear pinch. :D

Good call - I need to remember the diverse nature and experience of people reading this board. I'd certainly hate to think my posts contributed to somebody stupidly yanking and jerking a poor dog's ear. As you correctly point out they can be damaged by such stupidity.

[Rusky]

The reason I asked the question about training a dog not to bark is because the usual answer I get from PP trainers on this one is to "put the behaviour on cue".

poodlefan I honestly haven't see the cue speak work for a chronic barker. I know the idea is you teach your dog to 'speak' from offered behaviour and reward. The idea is that the dog will only speak when it is asked and rewarded, works well from new pup I believe but for a barker who loves the sound of his own voice I have great reservations and I don't know any which have worked.

I have never taught my dogs to speak 'bark' but all my dogs talk to me with that mumbly chatty stuff they do. I have taught every dog to converse with me, thats why everyone who is not doggy thinks I am completely nuts :D I have only ever gone to see the source of a bark and also when I put my hand through the dogs collar at the door, they growl and bark, to a 'who is it' I can say 'who is it' without the hand and no bark, just waggy tail. I do of course use a different tone.

I do cue the dog to bark I guess but only at the door to a stranger and my hand must be through the collar. Soon as I release the collar they are waggy and happy again.

[Sonic]

Rusky I'm still interested in hearing how you would stop a dog from stock chasing. To just say that you would find something the dog liked better doesn't work as there is nothing the dog likes better than chasing stock. How would you handle this?

To just ignore the dog when he chases stock is just allowing him to self-reward and thereby increasing his desire to chase.

I am very interested to hear genuine answers to this query.

Please bear in mind that this problem has been solved but it did take a mix of an aversive and the dogs natural prey drive. He still has the desire to chase stock but he can be controlled. I am genuinely interested to hear how this could have been achieved without the use of an aversive.

[Tonymc]

Sonic I have to agree with you.I cannot see how a Dog chasing Stock would be stopped without Channeling Prey Drive in another direction and using some aversive action. Tonymc

[Rusky]

Rusky I'm still interested in hearing how you would stop a dog from stock chasing. To just say that you would find something the dog liked better doesn't work as there is nothing the dog likes better than chasing stock. How would you handle this?

To just ignore the dog when he chases stock is just allowing him to self-reward and thereby increasing his desire to chase.

I am very interested to hear genuine answers to this query.

Please bear in mind that this problem has been solved but it did take a mix of an aversive and the dogs natural prey drive. He still has the desire to chase stock but he can be controlled. I am genuinely interested to hear how this could have been achieved without the use of an aversive.

Hi Sonic

I think you would need to find someone wherever you live to help you. I honestly don't think I can show you over a forum. I worry too about misinterpretation just as working dog did. I think chatting ideas is fine but specifics are more difficult. We are all presumably speaking in general terms.

If you want a solution using positive training then find a positive trainer close to you. You can always find a better motivator, usually... yourself

[jesomil]

:D

Edited December 15, 2006 by jesomil

[Rusky]

:D

[wheres my rock]

i still wanna see the pouting policeman

[JulesP]

I found a mesh fence works well to stop dogs chasing stock

[wheres my rock]

lol love it

[Sayreovi]

I found a mesh fence works well to stop dogs chasing stock

Thats what i thought as well, and perhaps a lead would do some good too!

[m-j]

Ill put it in human terms for you.

You drive a car and you go over a speed limit, you might get a fun adrenaline rush (drive satisfaction)

Than you one day get your photo taken and get fined.

Will you be slowing down next time you see a 24 hour speed camera?

You still get to your destination, safe.

I believe that would depend on what type of person you are.

If you are a fast car enthusiast, but on a low income, you probably wouldn't enjoy driving quite as much as you know that drive (scuse the pun ) satisfaction comes with a price. If you are well off and don't really need your license, the threat of this wouldn't be an issue and you will continue to speed to gain drive satisfaction, repeat offender. I think the tech term would be preparedness.

If someone was to offer that car enthusiast an opportunity to join a racing team and race a car if they didn't speed, they would probably slow down on the road for the opportunity to obtain drive peak, relatively hassle free.

Just some thoughts on getting a reliable recall or any behaviour under distraction, I prefer to use positives through proofing, by setting the dog up to succeed at each stage, if possible, but will use adversives or managemant, pending on the reason for the dog doing the behaviour I wanted to stop. I don't think the threat of an adversive is fool proof, in some countries they kill people for certain crimes (the ultimate adversive) but it still doesn't stop people from committing crimes that will enable this to happen to them. I'm not saying that positives will, but I don't believe either one or the other will stop anything and everything for all members of either species.

As someone said I would prefer to exhaust all positive avenues before turning to an adversive, for any preventative training. I also believe no training is permanent with a highly driven dog. Once you have achieved your goal, with any type of training that is counteracting a natural high drive that has been reinforced in the past, you will need to apply your motivator (adversive or positive) and/or a conditioned reinforcer again after X amount of time, if it is exposed to the trigger on a regular basis.

cheers

M-J

[Working_Setters]

M-J,

I agree with much of your post. However, I would say for my dogs it's not a threat of an adversive, it's a promise. My aim is to have the dogs understand that EVERY time they obey the stop whistle they will be rewarded and EVERY time they don't they will be punished. IMO this consistancy is the key to achieving a consistantly obediant dog.

[m-j]

I would say for my dogs it's not a threat of an adversive, it's a promise.

Ok anticipation, but really the dog feels the way it feels about complience to the command, regardless of whether we call it a threat, a promise or anticipation.

consistancy is the key to achieving a consistantly obediant dog.

I agree I think it is a dog trainers greatest asset,

cheers

M-J

[MonElite]

Ok anticipation, but really the dog feels the way it feels about complience to the command, regardless of whether we call it a threat, a promise or anticipation.

But corrections arent about the dog anticipating them.... a good correction is all about surprise.

[m-j]

But corrections arent about the dog anticipating them.... a good correction is all about surprise.

The dog needs to remember them so that he can avoid doing the behaviour that bought the correction in the first place or he isn't going to stop doing that behaviour.

cheers

M-J

[MonElite]

yes of course. but if you make the dog anticipate the correction and not have the element of suprise it wont work.

Also why on earth would you want a dog anticipating correction all the time - wouldnt it be counterproductive?

[whatevah]

I have also heard numerous times to stop a barker teach them to bark then not give the cue. I have always thought that was stupid. My dog has been taught to drop, but will still drop when not given the cue, for reason he is tired and wants to lay down.

What I do is try and not get the barking in the first place.