Training A Reliable Recall

[Jeff Jones]

what level of training are you speaking of? is this a dog which is already proofed or are we speaking of the dog the trainer is given on the first day. or were you making a joke?

the example given was with tongue in cheek, but i dont see how you are going to be able to train a dog purely in positive methods with no adversives,

how would you train a high prey drive dog that the higher reward is to stick by you and not chase its prey,

either way its going to get a reward, you have to think of it as the dog see's it,

i can stick by my handler and receive a reward from my handler, or i can reward myself by chasing the rabbit.

[Tonymc]

I use a combination of positive and correction depending of course on the circumstance and stage of learning of the individual Dog.The biggest problem I see with corrections are People applying them well before the Dog even understands what it is being asked.That in itself is not a problem with Correction, but lack of knowledge or awareness on the part of the Human concerned. Tonymc

[wheres my rock]

i still wanna see the policeman stomping of in a tanty coz his dog ran away and wouldnt listen rofl

[MonElite]

Sure people will argue that you don't use corrections to train dolphins effectively but that is an overly simplistic statement. Firstly, dolphin trainers are usually highly experienced professionals with a lot of animal training experience. Secondly, they have the luxury of time that many families don't have to train their dogs. And thirdly, they don't usually have to deal with eliminating unwanted behaviours.

And if the dolphin doesnt jump through the hoop its not a big deal.

[Kelpie-i]

I'm not sure who started the "us and them" notion when it comes to dog training? It's silly to think that only one method of training is going to fit all situations - this will never be the case. There are so many different types of personalities in dogs that it is important to keep this in perspective and train according to what is going to achieve the desired results.

Whilst PP methods will teach a dog just about anything, unfortunately you don't achieve true reliability with just this method. On the other hand compulsive or correctional methods will achieve reliability but results in the dog constantly having to beat corrections and perform robotically. Both extremes have their downfalls but when we meet halfway - work harmoniously.

A happy medium is the sensible approach that is usually undertaken by most trainers these days.

Just my 20c worth!

[wheres my rock]

actually the dolphins often dnt do what is asked and often they have to throw them fish to get them in the mood as i said earlier the no bucket example was a good one they couldnt see the bucket they didnt come.

Dolphins also peform in teh same envidonment everyday with very little change so they arent really a good comparision. also if you read lasd before the wind by karen pryor im sure throwing a chair int he water out of frustration to get a porpoise to swim over a line is not very positive either.

I like using positive trainig i like the results i get but i do say arggh and i do withold food when i think of aversive i think of physical corrections scruffing jerking etc and as i said before i do object to dogs being taught using correction based methods

[wheres my rock]

also you need to know how all methods work just in case you do need them or your faced with soemone who refuses to use one i'd rather show somene how to use correction the right way than send them away and have them shown incorrectly

[Jeff Jones]

I use a combination of positive and correction depending of course on the circumstance and stage of learning of the individual Dog.The biggest problem I see with corrections are People applying them well before the Dog even understands what it is being asked.That in itself is not a problem with Correction, but lack of knowledge or awareness on the part of the Human concerned. Tonymc

i agree Tonymc, this style of training can be seen at many obedience clubs.

aswell as giving the command and correction at the same time..this does nothing for the learning process of the dog.

[wheres my rock]

A lot of traditional trainers call me soft yet my dogs haev to earn their dinner well a fir bit of it and to me taking away the oppurtunity to gain reward is actually being very harsh dogs often become immune to corrections and scruffing but when you have a really strong relationship saying you wont lay anymore is a big punishment albeit a passive one

[jesomil]

I totally agree with the above post. Oops ETA i was refering to the post above the last post.

When i say adversives, with my current dog, i mainly mean a sharp AAHHH !!! I enjoy teaching him behaviours with the clicker and all his puppy training was done with food. All his current obedience training is taught with a tug toy.

I dont think this thread has become positive verses negative as it seems most people here use a healthy balance of the two. Negatives are never used in the training phase.

I think it has only become a bit of positive only verses pos/neg when people make broad statements about their method of training without being able to back it up.

Edited December 14, 2006 by jesomil

[Rusky]

Rusky you never answered my question on how you would teach a dog not to bark using purely positive methods. I'd still like to hear your answer

sorry poodlefan

I don't believe I use PP, I certainly never claimed to. I think pp is simply waiting for behaviour to be offered then rewarded and though i know people who say they use PP I see them move dogs into desirable position eg sitting close then reward.

My first question for a barking dog is

'why does it bark'

'when does it bark'

'what happens when the dog barks' and so on.

I know there are fruit loop dogs out there with excellent owners but they are few and far between. If a dog is barking for the sound of it's voice it is probably better to go and see what is happening.

I think good manners come first from both the owner and the dog, I am not speaking of trialing dogs here. There is a kelpie who barks like crazy when competing in agility or jumping. The dog makes me giggle cos I know he is saying ' oh wow' 'wheeeeeeeeeeeee' 'fantastic' he is happy.... it has been mentioned that the handler may like to stop the dog barking but if the dog is talking to say he is having a wonderful time then why would you want him to be quiet, why stop a joyful dog.

Sorry there are masses of examples of why dogs bark and I know you have a particularly vocal one. ( I think so anyway)

I had one here I was fostering, I went to have a look what she was barking at ( because I do) I decided that I would distract her next time, call her with a ball. This dog had only been with me a couple of weeks and this was just her second barking session.

Well I missed the start of the next time, so I went to look again and she came with me along the fenceline. I looked said nothing and left.

She didn't speak again while she was with me and I really have no idea if she just was worried and thought she had to protect me.

The dog was being pts as she was a continual barker, she is rehomed now and I told them if she barks just go and see what the fuss is about, it worked for me, they haven't had any problems. They will call me if there is I know

The question is always why is the dog barking. I know a barking dog can drive you nuts but finding the trigger for the initial behaviour and dealing with that can work. I know people debark but the operation needs repeating... bark collars the dogs seem to work through till they are not affective. A lady I know tried a citronella collar from the shire for her dog, it wasn't working too well after a few days. The dogs were fence runners, I told her to make a fence between hers and the back door and to make it solid, to have toys and stimulation when she wasn't home or to leave them inside when she went out. A combination plus a reward system of her calling the dogs when she saw people about to walk past adn rewarding for coming to her and not barking has worked.... for now but she will need to be consistant as they most definitely set each other off. I used to walk past these dogs daily, barking and then no bark.

I think a combination of management and reward based training will help but honestly it really is impossible for most people to devote a few days of solid behaviour management to repress barking. I haven't seen a perfect solution and I actually think the citronella collars are possibly worse than debarking. What did you do eventually? and has it worked?

[wheres my rock]

actuallu i think thie is one of the better threads we've had in the trianing forum everyone is just throwing ideas out on the table and discussign them without malice good on you jesomil for starting it

[Jeff Jones]

Rusky what would you do if/when the dog associates that when it barks the person comes outside giving it a reward?

[jesomil]

Interesting. Rusky, i am not having a go at you directly but it is a common thing about purely positive training that i have heard many times that bothers me.

It is the fact that management is more often used then actually fixing the behaviour.

Why not fix the behaviour, and if aversives fix the behaviour then so be it.

There is a kelpie who barks like crazy when competing in agility or jumping. The dog makes me giggle cos I know he is saying ' oh wow' 'wheeeeeeeeeeeee' 'fantastic' he is happy.... it has been mentioned that the handler may like to stop the dog barking but if the dog is talking to say he is having a wonderful time then why would you want him to be quiet, why stop a joyful dog.

Because barking is extremely annoying to other people and dogs. It is very hard to concentrate on your own dog when there is a barking dog driving you crazy. I would stop the dog barking immediately if it was my dog.

My purely positive friends that are the dog trainers have said on occassion that some dogs simply cant be let off lead. So instead of perhaps adding an aversive and correcting the behaviour, they no nothing of these methods so the dog spends the rest of its life on lead.

Keep in mind, that i am all for positive training and use it most of the time but i simply believe that there are some situations and some dogs thats require different methods. It is not a one method suits all.

[Rusky]

Rusky what would you do if/when the dog associates that when it barks the person comes outside giving it a reward

often the punishment for a dog barking is

'shaddup ya mongrel' in loud voice with a few expletives thrown in. The dog sees the "attention" as a reward and it doesn't stop. That is the reason why it is preferable to discover the reason for barking. If the dog is barking becasue it can see Joe Bloggs walking past and say Joe walks past at the same time every day and you can do a similar set up then set up for desensitising by calling and rewarding before Joe walks past, before the bark or at the very least, one call.... dog will run to the door. If the dog is barking to be let in... then don't let in and don't reward till quiet. I never reward behaviour I don't want, neither do you.

It is the fact that management is more often used then actually fixing the behaviour

nothing wrong with management, we women are experts at it, why not use it to our advantage. It is fine to manage a behaviour but of course combined with training solutions.

I also know pp dogs who are not allowed off lead, or to mix, or to play. I won't disagree with you. I also know dogs trained by old school who also can't be let off or to play. I don't really see a massive problem with that. I only ever allow one on one puppy socialisation and just as much for the benefit of the handler to read canine body language as for the dog to feel safe in a new environment.

I think people are perfectly entitled not to allow their dog to play, it is their dog... I have asked and been refused, asking is the key, making friends with the handler and your dogs getting used to each other and watching their behaviour.

I always feel that management is a safe option with an unknown quantity to give dog and handler an opportunity to feel comfortable.

There was a thread recently about a dog which had bitten someone, the best advice I read on that thread was to keep the dog away from the children till an expert could be called to assist with the dogs behaviour. That is management too.

[poodlefan]

Hi Rusky!

The reason I asked the question about training a dog not to bark is because the usual answer I get from PP trainers on this one is to "put the behaviour on cue".

However, that does not extinguish it. My dogs all sit on cue but that hardly means they don't sit at other times when the behaviour is unsolicited.

It's my belief that unwanted, self rewarding behaviours can be very difficult to deal with by PP methods. What tends to happen with some people who go to PP trainers with problem dogs is that they get given what you suggested - a whole bunch of management techniques that don't actually address the behaviour itself. To me that is failing the person who sought help and the dog. Provision of advice like "saying no three times to your dog is abuse' is a bunch of rot that doesn't help people raise a dog they want to live with - and yes, that's a real example I was given.

I think PP training is an ideal that is damn difficult to achieve in reality for most people. It's your average well intentioned but not wildly savvy dog owner that I get to deal with - you tend to have their attendance for about 8 weeks. That's 8 weeks to set them and their dogs up for life in terms of imparting training knowledge. A bunch of idealistic stuff ain't going to help most folk. So you teach them the basics of operant conditioning, give them a few strategies to deal with common unwanted behaviours and hope they get it before they go.

Funny how halti's are much loved by PP trainers and yet are a constant aversive - whether the dog is doing the right thing or not.

Oh,and on the barking thing - I've had some improvement with ultrasonic devices but if it was a real issue, I'd be looking at some kind of aversive collar. I'm no fan of debarking but it sure beats euthanasia and boy do some dogs LOVE to bark.

[Working_Setters]

deleted - cause it's more trouble than it's worth.

I would say ...........nah I wont say that either.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Working_Setters

[dogdude]

comment now irrelevant

Edited December 14, 2006 by dogdude

[Working_Setters]

DD - I think it comes down to the difficulty of conveying intensity, or the amount of force, using the written word. I suspect to most people "tug" means to pull, but I believe there would be considerable variation in the force people would associated with that action. To me, young babies frequently grasp and tug at your finger for example. Apply "force" of that level to my dogs, and I doubt they'd notice it, certainly it wouldn't cause them any discomfort.

ETA - Here is my thoughts from a previous post on negatives and their use in recall training and I stand by them.

IMO the adversive isn't effective b/c you cause the dog a great deal of pain, rather you let the dog know it has done the wrong thing, then you set it up for success and praise. If you NEVER allow the dog to ignore a recall/stop signal, then the dog learns it must always obey.

Clearly some people have a different opinion and they're certainly entitled to it. However IMO (and as has been borne out by this thread) the majority of people that have achieved a truly reliable recall, as demonstrated by "the rabbit test", have used some adversive to achieve it (WMR and her whippet being a notable exception). As a result of their high level stop/recall training, my dogs get to enjoy a great deal of free running exercise in a variety of highly stimulating environments, something that wouldn't be possible if they were not able to be stopped/recalled in the face of heavy distractions. IMO it's a case of "short term pain for long term gain". Yes we agree that the short term pain should be minimised, but I don't believe it can be dispensed with entirely, certainly not with the driven dogs I train and love.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Working_Setters

[whatevah]

At the Mary Ray Seminar in QLD, we had a border collie that barked constantly doing agility. This was a clicker trained dog, so what she did was to c/t over one obstacle, then gradually lengthened it to two, then three etc, and the dog stopped barking. The dog was barking out of frustration.