Training A Reliable Recall

[Rusky]

sorry Myszka I missed this

Ok lets get back to the canine terms, how do you show the dog when its doing something wrong?

I don't

I show it when it is doing something right :D

[poodlefan]

I think aversives have their place in training. However the fact that something is "aversive" to the dog doesn't mean it has to be physical punishment. If my dog does zoomies at agility and doesn't come to me then it gets a "time out" tied to the fence and ignored. That's aversive

I have one question for the purely positive trainers - how do you train a dog not to bark?

One other thing to remember with recalls is that for your dog to respond to your cue, it has to hear you. There are studies that show that dogs in full prey drive after quarry cannot hear outside "distractions". Timing of a recall is important no matter how well your dog is trained IMHO.

[jesomil]

Its great reading all the replies.

I think with training, it is best to always have an open mind and that is why i asked the initial question.

There is no point someone arguing something that they have limited experience in. You can always learn something. If positive only training works with your dog and your personality and what you want to do with the dog, that is great, but i dont believe it is possible to train any dog for anything with no aversives.

[Sonic]

I'm finding this thread very interesting.

Rusky, how would you handle, with purely positive methods, a dog that chases stock? I can't see how it is possible but am always willing to learn.

If the dog in question finds the thrill of chasing the stock greater than anything you can possibly provide him, how would you handle that?

[MonElite]

Rusky - how do you stop unwanted behaviour?

[whatevah]

I have worked alongside the police with both the sniffer (PAD, passive alert dogs) and the tracking type. The PAD dog handler when the dog gives an indication, the dog is rewarded with a piece of advance dry food. That is it!!! The handler when he has the dog at home even makes him find something to get the rest of his food. The labradors are very thin and you can easily see the ribs.

I was with a handler when the dog tracked a person, the dog grabbed hold of this kids leg and I think the dog just got a pat and verbal encouragement. The handler told me that the dogs are trained to go for the arms and as the kid didn;t have his arm out the dog got confused until encouraged by the handler. The handler told me this boy was lucky it wasn;t a more experienced dog. It was a German Shepherd.

[Cosmolo]

Rusky- anyone who loves dogs would 'prefer' to train with positive techniques only. Are you really saying that EVERY dog can be trained using positive techniques only? If so, i question the number of truly difficult dogs you have worked with. Why wouldn't you recognise that different dogs require different techniques?

You didn't answer the question regarding a dog who sees something else as more rewarding than what you can possibly provide.

As for what i would do- i would devalue the very thing the dog finds more appealing than my pats/ food treat/ toy, by using some kind of correction the type and level of which would depend on the dog.

Aversive only training teaches avoidance of the aversive like you suggest. What i am talking about is teaching the dog that to avoid the aversive AND get something great, they need to do XYZ, in this example a recall. The value of what you have increases significantly when you devalue the alternative

[Rusky]

Hi cosmolo, sorry I was out so hadn't seen your reply. We went to the dogs, I haven't been before but I loved those dogs, so playful and happy. One dog was miles behind the others in what looked like a training run, wasn't a race... he was jumping around doing play bows and then looked and seemed to be saying 'where'd they go?' a sweet dog I expect gap or GA will get soon, he really wasn't interested in the lure.

ok back to this.

You didn't answer the question regarding a dog who sees something else as more rewarding than what you can possibly provide.

As for what i would do- i would devalue the very thing the dog finds more appealing than my pats/ food treat/ toy, by using some kind of correction the type and level of which would depend on the dog.

I would find something more rewarding.

What i am talking about is teaching the dog that to avoid the aversive AND get something great, they need to do XYZ, in this example a recall. The value of what you have increases significantly when you devalue the alternative

yes you are speaking avoidance, I am speaking reward, to get something great they need to do XYZ... yes. We have already noted that the lack of treat... they want... don't get till behaviour is correct, as an aversive. So in technical terms aversives are used, I simply use a lower level.

If so, i question the number of truly difficult dogs you have worked with. Why wouldn't you recognise that different dogs require different techniques

praise only when correct behaviour is demonstrated. I ignore a lot, don't look, let the dog settle and be comfortable. I agree with you that correction will result in avoidance, absolutely but correction description can again be ambiguous. I correct by placing and rewarding. What corrections do you use?

The training generally is for the handler anyway, advice on how to live with your dog and how to both prevent and cure undesirable behaviour.

I know there are a lot of people on here who disagree with me... I am not phased. I am not a dog trainer, I am a people trainer. For every action there is a reaction, it is up to us to choose the action.

now I really must get my xmas cards written

[haven]

I wonder how the people who believe in training dogs using absolutely no aversives feel about the use of aversives in everyday living, is it wrong to give fines for speeding, suspensions at school for bullying, incarceration for assault etc etc. Would the 'positive only' technique result in a better society, with less crime, more peace love and mung beans? Honest musing here, no sarcasm etc intended.

I'm sure someone will give the old "dogs are not humans" and that is true, but I don't see the issue with giving an aversive in a situation when the dog is aware of what is required and what behaviours will result in reinforcement and punishment. If you tell a trained dog to sit and he is aware that compliance will result in a food treat and non compliance will result in something aversive, what is wrong with giving the punisher as a consequence of the dog's own choice?

[Cosmolo]

Have an appoinments to rush out to but just quickly- Rusky- how do you find something more rewarding than a rabbit/ other dog etc given a dog that loves those things? Can you give an example

[wheres my rock]

dogs arent human rofl

sorry couldnt resist

[wheres my rock]

ok on the question if the dogs truly really knows the command he will respond to it if he doesnt then you need to ask why what was different peple are very quick to say their dog knows it but in my experience most of them actually dont know it well enough

[Emily Howard]

Rusky, Do you beleive all dogs can be trained, regardles of drive,temp and nerve, using purely positive methods?

[LilBailey]

Some good points of veiw and perspective. Was an interisting and informative read untill people start a slanging match. If your not informed don't post and if you don't like osmeone's opion you don't have to get narky about it. GEEEZ

[Jeff Jones]

so your training process would be,

command - compliance - reward?

or if the dog doesnt comply it would be,

command - no compliance - no reward?

could you imagine if the police sent a dog out offlead issued the command to leave and the dog kept going, and the officers next response would be to ignore the dog and walk away....

you cannot train a police service dog with no adversives...

[wheres my rock]

rofl would they walk away stomping thei feet with their arms crossed and pouting

coz i can actually picture that

[wheres my rock]

i dont have an issue with aversives only that the person makes sure that it is really necessary first i see too many dogs being corrected when they really dont know what is expected of them

i do however have an issue with teaching using corrections i dont like it lol

just to add

a firend once told me there is a huge difference between teaching and discipline

Edited December 14, 2006 by wheres my rock

[Rusky]

could you imagine if the police sent a dog out offlead issued the command to leave and the dog kept going, and the officers next response would be to ignore the dog and walk away....

what level of training are you speaking of? is this a dog which is already proofed or are we speaking of the dog the trainer is given on the first day. or were you making a joke?

yes I believe all dogs can be taught positively, just as many of you believe they need corrections ( except so far no one has given me an example of a correction) The aversive is not gaining the reward.

I disagree with the op that a dog cannot be taught a reliable recall by positive training methods, they can and they are.

The thread is fast turning into a positive V correction training. I don't have a problem with that but I think you all need like cosmolo to watch dogs which have been trained by different methods. I have.

Cosmolo you need to make yourself the most important thing in the world and their reward whatever it may be, dogs have different things they love as do we. I have given some examples already, for a search and rescue dog I know it is a scrap of fabric with hard rubber inside, for an assistance dog I know it is a fluffy teddy.

[poodlefan]

Rusky:

yes I believe all dogs can be taught positively, just as many of you believe they need corrections ( except so far no one has given me an example of a correction) The aversive is not gaining the reward.

Saying BAH!!! at inappropriate behaviour is a correction. Yelling "off" when a dog jumps on you is a correction. Guiding a dog's head round and towards you when it pulls on the halti is a correction. Using a long line to guide a dog to you when it doesn't respond to a "come" cue is a correction.

Rusky you never answered my question on how you would teach a dog not to bark using purely positive methods. I'd still like to hear your answer

I don't see the use of positive or corrective methods as being exclusive.. its possible to use both. I train using positive methods as much as possible but I will use an correction if I believe it's necessary. It doesn't mean the correction will be a harsh one however.

Rusky to some dogs NOTHING is more desireable than prey. Even very positive trainers are on record as saying trainng tools like shock (and I mean shock not E-collars) have a place in dealing with dogs who are habitual stock chasers. They argue (and I agree) that for such undesireable and potentially life threatening behaviour, the use of strong, physical aversives is justified. Otherwise, its almost impossible to to extinguish such highly self rewarding behaviour.

Sure people will argue that you don't use corrections to train dolphins effectively but that is an overly simplistic statement. Firstly, dolphin trainers are usually highly experienced professionals with a lot of animal training experience. Secondly, they have the luxury of time that many families don't have to train their dogs. And thirdly, they don't usually have to deal with eliminating unwanted behaviours.

Edited December 14, 2006 by poodlefan

[haven]

Some good points of veiw and perspective. Was an interisting and informative read untill people start a slanging match. If your not informed don't post and if you don't like osmeone's opion you don't have to get narky about it. GEEEZ

When did it turn into a slanging match and people getting narky? Maybe I need to read back cos I do't remember that

Personally I use the term correction in the same manner as I would the term punisher or punishment i.e. something that makes a behaviour occur less frequently or with less intensity. A correction/punisher is defined by the affect it has on the dogs behaviour, it could be a verbal 'no', it could be sin binning the dog, with holding a treat, a smack etc etc. What one dog views as a correction another may not.

My pet hate is people who use negative punishment e.g. witholding food, attention etc and look down on those that use positive punishment e.g. verbal 'no', correction chain etc as thought there method is better and more 'humane' or kinder on the dog. For humans to make the assumption that a dog would find one kinder than the other is the height of arrogance and misunderstanding of canine psychology IMO.

Disclaimer: Rusky, none of the above is directed specifically at you, nor is it aimed at anyone else here.