Training A Reliable Recall

[JulesP]

So far I am very pleased with my pup's recall. Got to test it under distraction last week and the training held. Pup at one stage absolutely flew into some bushes, his front legs were off the ground to jump a log when I called him back. He was straight back like an arrow, was a beautiful thing. :D Also returned when 3 dogs came along off lead. Has also returned in the paddocks when the horses started running around.

His formal recall is rather slow though as he is a rather laid back BC! He is much quicker out and about.

I am careful to never call him when he is likely to not come. e.g. when he knows it is bath time!!!

I didn't use treats to teach the recall but rather praise and making coming to me the best thing in the world. Pup seems to think it is a good game.

[JulesP]

OMG just got to test pups recall again! Was sitting here and heard a horrible squealing noise. Looked out and pup is chasing a rabbit. (I didn't know rabbits could make such a horrible noise), I bolted out and called him and he was straight back to me even though his nose was on the bunny!!

[Working_Setters]

I didn't use treats to teach the recall but rather praise and making coming to me the best thing in the world.

But the thing is when you're a Whippet and you're chasing a rabbit that's two meters in front of you, then the best thing in the world is two meters in front of you, there's no treat/reward that I know of that's bigger/better to the whippet at that point in time. Therefore (and this is the problem I've always had with positive only training) there will come a time when you don't have a reward that the dog will value more highly than the rabbit.

However I'm thinking now, from where's my rock's posts, that it's not a question of having the dog weigh up the two rewards and decide which it would prefer, rather it's a process of very carefully training recall (and every other command) in low distraction enviroments, then gradually adding distractions. The dogs response needs to be a reflex response for success in high distraction settings. Which is also the same the way I train (traditional methods), it's just that I have a bigger margin for error, b/c if the dog ignores stop/recall, I can correct (negative) and still teach the dog something, where as positive only don't have that option.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Working_Setters

[Rusky]

my dog has a perfect recall, she was trained with positive reinforcement training. My mate has a dog who is older and never titled as he runs on recall. We have turned around his training completely, all facets to positive reinforcement, not individual excercise but a way of life. It is early days but now off lead he always returns even with increased distraction. Distraction is being built up slowly and it wasn't as easy as the book says

I usually carry food with me but physical and verbal praise will do just as well, maybe it is the element of expectation of food. I don't know anyone personally who trials using aversives these days. I have to say that the dogs that run are continually being told by the judges to use positive training.

Positive training I don't believe is something you can mix with aversives, consistancy and timing is the key.

If you are happy with your methods that's ok but your statement about reliable recall using positive training is wrong. I think maybe the people you are watching are learning to use positives, they may be doing a bit of mixing or maybe the dog was trained with aversives originally.

If your statement were true we wouldn't have any titles here in WA. The 'seniors' like to train during beginners sessions to proof the dog with puppy and juvenile dog distraction. A lot do herding now at country trials, maybe they herd the rabbits? I will have to ask :D

The WA police and customs use positive training. The search and rescue people I know use positives too. I have never been at one of their training sessions though, just the ones I know don't use aversives so I imagine recall is the same. I will find out though.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Rusky

[JulesP]

Yep, my dog isn't returning now because he thinks he is going to get something but because he has been trained to come when called. If the dog is only weighing up whether it will get something better if it returns then IMHO the training has failed.

[country joe]

Pups are out in field early but I am careful not to call them while they are interested in something. I will go pick them up.

Teach pup recall. (read that as come play or food depending on pup) no distraction. Pup learns come is always fun When I notice a bit of independence coming in about 4.5 to 5 months I teach down side of not coming. (small distraction set up in yard usually a piece of rag on a string or something smelly, dog not given any time, call is given as correction is coming, a second before max.) Correction is a grab hold of the loose skin on the back of neck, no shaking just a gruff voice "did you hear me" I repeat this a couple of time over the next 2 or 3 days. Then I let pup beat correction.

Not interested in any finish just being with me is good not listening is bad.

This is how I introduce a formall recall.

This seems to work for me.

Country Joe.

[Cosmolo]

Rusky- just because you haven't met anyone who trials and uses aversives OR admits to using aversives, doesn't mean that they are not there. I find it interesting that you think you can't mix positive training with some aversives as this is the way i train with excellent results for my dogs and my clients. My youngest dog won her first trial at 15 months old with this training and she is a happy confident and successful dog who enjoys her work.

Also, there is a reason why SARDA, customs etc use 'positive training'. The SARDA dogs have been trained since pups and believe that no other distraction will give them the same reward as finding a person on a search. The customs/ quarantine dogs are high drive and as aversives reduce drive- this is why they're not used. The dogs actually care if they don't get their reward as their work time is the only opportunity to earn that reward. (which i find is very different to alot of pet dogs) Scent detection dogs usually required to have extremely high food drive, or if they are to work out the back of an airport, mail centre etc- they will have high prey drives and be trained using an active reward. Dogs with average drive are simply NOT chosen for this work. I believe the police would work in drive rather than 'let go of that man and i'll give you a treat'. It is absurd to compare working dogs like this to the pet dog with a totally different life and set of expectations.

In terms of a reliable recall, i think it depends on the dog's prior learning. If they have already learnt that chasing a rabbit for instance is the best thing in the world, it is likely you will need some kind of aversive. And no we are not talking about ripping the dogs head off, we're talking about devaluing the distraction (using some kind of correction) so that the reward you have is more appealing and the dog makes the right decision. Just because some of us train with aversives, does not mean we don't use positive reinforcement!!! You can combine the two with good timing and consistency.

If you have a pup that has been carefully raised and trained, i think you can have reliability with 'positive' training. I also think you can if you have a high drive dog that you train in drive reliability can be achieved. But for dogs that don't care about food, or don't care about a toy, or don't care about a pat OR have learnt that the highest rewards come from something that is not you, i think aversives are necesary. My preference would always be to train in drive or using positive techniques- but i admit when its not going to work for a particular dog and have other techniques up my sleeve for those dogs.

[wheres my rock]

hi working setter

ok to answer your questions a reward is what the dogs love so for some it may be food another praise and pats anoter toys. for my whippet it was his rabbit skin he'd do anythin for his rabbit skin but for precsion i used food.

Also depending ont he dog i cut my sheltie lose at ten months the bc six months the whppet i was a bit cautious because of his speed

[MonElite]

my dog has a perfect recall, she was trained with positive reinforcement training.

I usually carry food with me but physical and verbal praise will do just as well, maybe it is the element of expectation of food.

what happens when the dog isnt food motivated?

I don't know anyone personally who trials using aversives these days.

We arent talking about a trail recall here, this is relativelly easy to train where calling the hound of running rabbit isnt.

Positive training I don't believe is something you can mix with aversives, consistancy and timing is the key.

Where I agree with you about consistency and timing I cant really see a reason for not mixing the two. Id like to hear why do you think it cant be mixed?

If your statement were true we wouldn't have any titles here in WA.

My older dog used to score 20/20 in a tial, where outside the trial I would say he had a pretty poor recall.

The WA police and customs use positive training. The search and rescue people I know use positives too.

SARDOG said - "We stock proof our pups with the negative value attached"

[Kelpie-i]

Beautifully put Cosmolo!

Having worked for Quarantine, I can attest to the fact that the beagles are fed their meals solely from the handler's pouch. No find, no feed - although they occassionally "mock" a seizure or two on a slow day and when training. Not sure about the "no correction" policy though as most BB beagles wear correction chains??

I believe to achieve a totally reliable recall from an extremely high distraction using only positive methods you must be of much higher value to your dog than whatever it is he is wanting to chase, otherwise forget it!

[MonElite]

I belive that if the dog is neutralised to EVERYTHING its possible to get a recall with only positive methods.

That would mean that a dog treats everything and anything as a park bench, have no value assigned to anything other than the handler.

And Id say that when it comes to pets there arent many dogs like that.

More info on neutralisation http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...c=43479&hl=

[haven]

I believe to achieve a totally reliable recall from an extremely high distraction using only positive methods you must be of much higher value to your dog than whatever it is he is wanting to chase, otherwise forget it!

Agree, I don't believe it's training the recall that requires the use of aversives, it's changing the dog's value of certain items.

My GSD has a reliable recall and I didn't have to apply an eversives to achieve it, however he values little else aside from me so there is rarely a conflict between chasing/recalling for him.

It all depends on the dog, not the exersise being taught IMO. You can't say "you can't teach a reliable recall without using aversives" but you can say "you probably can't teach that dog to recall reliably without using aversives". (edited that last because I don't like to talk absolutes) :D

Personally I don't like to use aversives in recall training because I think it's completely counter productive, if a dog is too distracted to recall then it's the specific stimulus causing the distraction you need to work on more than the recall itself.

I also agree that the recall and other commands become a reflex action when trained well, in that the dog obeys even under high distraction because they are so conditioned to pair that action with that command.

Edited December 13, 2006 by haven

[wheres my rock]

iagree myska trial recalls for obedience are basiclly a trick but then i call all competition obedience exercises tricks because half the dogs cant do it under real distraction.

your also right about neutralisation my dogs think im queen of the fun they learn that the minute they arrive and we continue it right through their lives

however i have had rescues dogs my gsp being one and they had high value on things so then i have to work harder to be even higher value

my first dog taught me the importance of a reliable recall the say he ran into a busy road afetr a rabbit we had only had him a few weks i was an idiot back then and learn a big lesson he wasnt hit thank god but it certainly got me thinking that dog is the reason i trian the way i do and the reason i carefuly think about what i am hoping to achive we do compete in obedience for fun but our day to day life skills are where the real training goes

[wheres my rock]

working setter

we pretty much train the same way just from differnt angles i guess

yes my trianing is very dog specific each dog that comes to be i assesss and reassesss and then set up a trianing program the other thing is timing you have to have great timing regardless of method

yes a whippet chasing down a bunny is a huge test but have you thoguht that if you then follow in pursuit your baking up the case whereas whn i take off in the other direction and im leader maybe im chasing something better plus your guranted a catch with mum coz that rabbit skin aint gonna get away

I am very proud of my whippet Yogi was an amazing dog to work everydog teaches you soemthing he taught me to think n my feet and keep things very unpredictable

[wheres my rock]

i agree haven and i would use aversive if i felt them necessary with a particular dog i dont like one method fits all dogs either

i believe though that you should try to always use poesitives and only when th bucket of ideas is empty revert to an aversive plus you need to define aversive

because as in many discussions everyone seems to have a diferent idea on what one is

me breaking of an exercise could techinically be aversive no more oppurtunity to gain reward.

[jesomil]

Basically, they work on getting a prey item as the dogs greatest distraction and building the dogs drive so it will do almost anything to satisfy its frenzy.

What happens when you need a recall and you dont have that particular item on you?

I'm curious to understand what you mean by "aversive". When I read it the first time, I thought that you meant something like beating the dog with a stick if it didn't obey the command. Now that I've reread it, do you mean an aversive to be something like a "correction" with a check chain?

I think it is safe to say that we are all dog lovers here and are very interested in training our dogs and discussing methods. There is no room for beating a dog in any form of training. You will not achieve a thing. I think a few positive people fall into the trap of when hearing aversive they think the dog is being beaten and abused.

By aversive, i mean anything that shows your displeasure, be it chasing the dog down, grabbing it by the scruff, a correction on the collar, even a sharp AH AH. Whatever works for the dog and handler.

IMO the adversive isn't effective b/c you cause the dog a great deal of pain, rather you let the dog know it has done the wrong thing, then you set it up for success and praise. If you NEVER allow the dog to ignore a recall/stop signal, then the dog learns it must always obey.

:D

come down to kcc and see my dogs i have three with excellent recalls all trained with positives and no i dont have to have food on me for them to respond.

I would love to see this. You obviously have a very good understanding of positive recall training and i would love to see it work.

Wheres my rock obviously has learnt how to apply the theory of positive reinforcement in a manner that allows a reliable recall to happen, like so many people can and have done (myself included).

Have you read the book Don't Shoot The Dog by Karen Pryor? Might answer some of your questions

I have seen so many people try the concept but have never seen it actually work. Yes, i have read that book. It is brilliant. Dont get me wrong, i love positive training and use it wherever possible.

thanksyou helen years the many years of studying and experimenting have paid off a bit lol

Do you need several years of experience behind you to be able to get accurate results from your dog?

If your dog was out free running, say 50 meters from you, and put up a rabbit, could you reliably stop/recall the dog mid-chase? What reward can you offer a Brittany (or other gundog) that is more desirable that chasing a rabbit?

I would be interested to hear more about training this. What if you have an adult dog who has had several wins chasing rabbits? What positive motivation can you use to stop it? I mean without taking 5 years of training?

umm if he ignored he be so far away you wouldnt be able to go after him hehe he was that bloody fast

id nick off and hide and then he'd have to find me or id run away in the other direction chasing something else when he found me we'd have a big play for coming to get me then i'd pop the long line on and go back to the drawing borad whilst hitting myself in the head for overestimating his level of training

You have obviously put alot of time and effort into teaching your dogs very thoroughly what it means.

I didn't use treats to teach the recall but rather praise and making coming to me the best thing in the world. Pup seems to think it is a good game.

That works just great with a pup. Coming to you will not be the best thing in the world later on.

I usually carry food with me but physical and verbal praise will do just as well, maybe it is the element of expectation of food. I don't know anyone personally who trials using aversives these days. I have to say that the dogs that run are continually being told by the judges to use positive training.

Positive training I don't believe is something you can mix with aversives, consistancy and timing is the key.

What about with a dog that doesnt give a toss about food or toys? What about if i dont want to have to carry food on me most of the time? Can you make your dog spin on the spot under very heavy distraction to come to you?

Positive training works brilliantly with aversives. They mix together beautifully. Aversives are not used in the training phases. I am not talking about obedience trialling here.

The WA police and customs use positive training. The search and rescue people I know use positives too. I have never been at one of their training sessions though, just the ones I know don't use aversives so I imagine recall is the same. I will find out though.

There are lots of working dogs that are trained using positive training but i have never seen any that never use adversives.

ETA sorry, my quotes didnt work?!?!?! it makes for a long any boring read, sorry.

Edited December 13, 2006 by jesomil

[Working_Setters]

yes a whippet chasing down a bunny is a huge test but have you thoguht that if you then follow in pursuit your baking up the case whereas whn i take off in the other direction and im leader maybe im chasing something better plus your guranted a catch with mum coz that rabbit skin aint gonna get away

But if your whippet catches the rabbit before he comes looking for you, then you're in a heap of trouble as the chase has been rewarded big time.

I use the running away and hiding stratergy with pups, but my older dogs are so driven to find game, it could be sometime before they come looking for me.

[wheres my rock]

hi jesomil to answer the bits for me i dont think you need many years of trinaing to geta reliable recall with eiter method but you do need soemone to teach you how to do it.

im a natural trainer i think about each dog individually and work with what its giving me i dont think about what i do i just do it many years ago when studying at uni we came to the end of a class on editing and the instructor said now forget everyhting i taught you and go out and wirte

i belive dg trianing is the same you neeed to elarn all the theories and elements of training but then you need to just get out their and learn to understand your dogs and what works best for them

one thing i cant do is teach other people because i dont think about what im doing its to hard to pass it on i can pass on the eleents but not the timing not the ability to change ideas mid session to tink outside the square

i also a big beleiver that luring teaches nothing but how to follw food and that if you have to have a bucket of food al the time then the dog hasnt moved past the beginning stages sure you can get pretty far with the bucket but god help you if you left it at home. In karen pryrs other bok lads before the wind she talks about just that when she left the dolphin bucket wth someone and went roudn the corner to call the dolphin guess what it didnt come until she went and got that darn bucket.

however its the same of correction when you havent got the chain or cant reach the dog you better hope the trinaing is there to have the dog respond without the threat of correction how many dogs lag when off lead no chinks on the chain to remind them

[Steve K9Pro]

SD: Sardog "Gus" was searching the outside of the buildings and was searching a small shed located in a remote part of the school grounds. Suddenly a fox shot out of the shed with Gus "right on his tail"...it was the element of surprise that made the dog chase and his handler blew his whistle and the dog immediately spun around and back to the handler. The dog then continued on his search.

K9: lol Oh man, Im am sure he has mentioned it a few times....I cant imagine being anywhere near Andrew after that! :D

On the subject, I dont think that training a 100% reliable recall is possible without aversives if the dog already has a high value for something, eg a running rabbit..

I also would like to add that even with holding food or your attention is an aversive to a dog that wants it...

[wheres my rock]

i agree k9 as i said you have to define aversive we all use some sort of aversive using the text book definition

so i guess a better question would be what level of aversive people use

have to add i know a lot of epople who use reward based trianing but i only know of a couple that i would say can really trian a dog

Edited December 13, 2006 by wheres my rock