Nervous Aggression In A 4mth Puppy

[schnauzermum]

My 16 week mini schnauzer, Mitzi, has settled well at home with our placid 9 year old male mini schnauzer. HOWEVER, I can't take her out the front gate without her barking: initially at nothing , then at anyone she sees, particularly other dogs. She has just finished puppy pre-school where the problem first emerged . Despite being the smallest, she launched herself at every puppy, growling and barking, taking most of the class to settle. Each week she repeated the behaviour, only when the trainer used a squirt bottle did we see some improvement.

I'm reluctant to use this negative deterrent as I wanted her to have a positive asssociation with meeting people and other dogs and to enjoy going to the park with my other dog.

I now walk her alone, started with short "desensitizing" walks out the front gate and a few houses away only, treats when she's quiet, and a firm NO/SIT when she barks.( Terminating the walk isn't much use as she's keen to get back inside anyway. ) She seems to be slowly improving - people at a distance seem ok (as long as they don't look at her), the biggest problem is other dogs approaching- today we tried the park but she snapped at a whippet that ran towards her.

I wanted desperately to have a well-socialized dog, not a yappy one. At home she's not the dominant dog, and we've been applying NILIF and TOT and she's ok. Do I keep going slowly, avoiding any contact with new dogs at this stage- do I ignore her when she barks, do I say NO, or do I break the cycle and use the squirt bottle?

There's a along break now before I can take any training classes so any advice is appreciated.

[peibe]

Hopefully a trainer will come along soon and answer your questions, but if this was my puppy I would not be using a squirt bottle

I am an advocate of squirt bottles but I believe your puppy needs more nice interaction with other dogs and people as she appears to be lacking socialisation

I do not think the squirt bottle is the answer in this situation

[Dogsfevr]

Personnaly i would get my fold up chair & sit quietly out the front of the house going no where but giving her a chance to view the outside world,accept the noises,people etc.Do in very short spurts & only leave when she is being good with lots of reward.

Is she a black or black/silver??

[Bindo]

Hi schnauzermum, boy can I relate to you!

Going from a placid male MS (mine died unexpectedly at 8) to a feisty female has been a whole new experience!

Mitzi sounds just like my girl at that age. I've found that the best approach, like showdog says, is slow exposure in short spurts. I also found that Lucy tended to be worse around our house (guarding?) but improved once we were in a new street or area, so I used to drive her to another place (quiet park etc) for a little walk. Obedience classes, working around other dogs, has made big improvements too (except when another schnauzer joins the class!), but I know you can't get to them before next year. She's now at the stage where she she's still barky when we just leave the front gate, but settles down once on the walk. Still pulls a bit when she sees people or another dog, but not barking.

Good luck, I sympathise, and not sure where you are, but there are great obedience classes on a Tuesday night in Sydney, with a wonderful trainer who specialises in schnauzers. PM me if you want details.

[SALTWOOD]

As the others have said, the repetition of obedience training and going to obedience classes will probably get the result you want eventually.

However in the meantime, have you read the methods of "The Dog Listener" - Jan Fennell available from ABC shops in book or DVD (try eBay).

I found some of her methods to be helpful - it might help you as much as she says her methods have helped many others in the UK.

Even if it helps in a few areas it would be worthwhile.

[Cosmolo]

I would not be using a squirt bottle on a young puppy. Did the pup improve over the puppy school period? What i think needs to happen would be to set up calm positive interactions between Mitzi and other dogs. This is something that i would not be doing with dogs i didn't know and suggest consulting a trainer (who has reliable dogs that they can use) for. I would want a dog or number of dogs that could be put into a drop or kept stationary while firstly dealing with Mitzi's reactivity and then allowing her to approach a calm, still dog in her own time. We do this regularly with our dogs and timid or reactive clients dogs with great results and minimal or no use of any aversives

[haven]

I absoultely, definately would not use a spray bottle or any other aversive in the situation you describe, you are quite correct about the potential to further your dogs negative association by doing so.

I would be getting this kid out to a training school that runs a formal socialisation program run by qualified and experienced instructors that can help you overcome this issue. This is something that needs to happen now, the longer you wait the more likely it is that your pups behaviour will become a lifelong issue. I wouldn't wait another day!

[Kavik]

Bindo, I bet you go to the same place as me

With a GSD and Kelpie, I often look out of place among the Schnauzers, Aussie Shepherds and Goldies

[schnauzermum]

thanks everyone,that was my first post so I appreciate your help. In reply, Mitzi is a salt and pepper mini, although her paternal grandfather and his line were black and silver.

We are in Melbourne ,Bindo, so unfortunately we can't attend your Tuesday classes, hopefully we can find an enlightened trainer here in the eastern suburbs.- does anyone have any suggestions?

We're encouraged to go to pre school, but obviously the quality of trainers varies and not all advice is correct.

I'm heartened that everyone's against squirting Mitzi, schnauzers can be very strongwilled,from past experience they respond well to food rewards, and we should get there, but she's started causing problems so much earlier than my previous two schnauzers- both of whom learnt to behave .

I guess I'm trying too much too soon for this particular puppy ,in my eagerness to socialize her I may have overdone it.

My current tack is to ignore her completely if barking as we go up the street, treating her only when quiet-I'll know in a few days if this is working.

[Cosmolo]

Have a look at our website below as we do consult in your area

[haven]

Where abouts in the Eastern Suburbs?

[Kelpie-i]

schnauzermum, Haven is correct. You need to attend a school with structured socialisation/desensitisation program for your pup. This sort of problem is not something that can be fixed in just a few sessions with just 1 or 2 different dogs, but one that requires a SLOW but steady introduction to many different dogs in different situations etc. Continue with the NILIF and TOT programs as these will provide you with good leadership skills in the meantime.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Kelpie-i

[Cosmolo]

While i agree with Kelpie-i and Haven, i do question whether going straight into a group situation is the best thing for this pup. Ask the training schools you consider if its possible to have a one on one session first so that you can be given the strategies to deal with the problem as it arises and you can have more confidence going into the group classes (with structured socialisation)

I certainly did not mean to imply that the problem would be resolved in a few sessions with 1 or 2 dogs but i do think that a private session or two would be of benefit before heading into a group class. If the OP has a one on one with an instructor from the club/ training organisation he/ she chooses to attend, i believe this would make the first experience at the training ground less stressful for both owner and pup as some strategies would already be in place. If the pup is reacting to one dog on the street, the reaction may be intensified in a group situation with a large number of dogs present. I would prefer to introduce an appropriate technique in a familiar environment (so the pup can pick it up more readily with a lower stress level) with one or two dogs before sending the pup into a group class.

I would be interested to hear what Haven and Kelpie-i think of this approach.

[Kelpie-i]

Cosmolo, you could go either providing that the school provides the dog and owner with a structured/tailored program and does not throw the dog into the thick. It is a lot easier to change a puppy's emotions than it is to change an adult dog's.

[Cosmolo]

Agreed. And i know that there are some great structured training/ socialisation centres out there. My line of thought is more geared toward the mere presence of so many other dogs being enough to throw the dog (and owner) into the deep end and therefore the pup not being as open to learning or retaining as much as he/she could from a lower intensity environment to begin with.

[Kelpie-i]

This can certainly be the case if exposed too quickly....one would hope that should the owner choose to take the pup to a training establishment that they don't aren't thrown into the deep end.

Edited December 12, 2006 by Kelpie-i

[haven]

Yep, I agree with both of you. Actually that's why I asked as to the OP's whereabouts, if they are close to me I'd be happy for them to meet Princess Novasmooch before braving group training.

[schnauzermum]

it looks like we'll be spending a long time at training- Mitzi's a gorgeous dog and well worth the effort . I'm heading for the phone to call obedience schools now. We live in Canterbury, Haven, and am happy to travel any reasonable distance.

I'm very keen to have a one on one lesson as I'd like a professional's opinion as to why she behaves like this- if there's anything we are doing at home to precipitate her behaviour.

[haven]

In Canterbury you're probably closer to Cosmolo than me (although don't quote me, I'm severely geographically challenged ), I'm outern eastern.

How long this issue take you to overcome is like the rhetoric how long is a piece of string, but as Kelpie-i said it is far easier to change the way a puppy feels about a certain situation/stimulus than it is to change an adult's which is why you are better off to start right away.

[Bindo]

Bindo, I bet you go to the same place as me

With a GSD and Kelpie, I often look out of place among the Schnauzers, Aussie Shepherds and Goldies

Yes, that's right - I'm the one with the recalcitrant MS, who mentioned DOL the other night. Didn't make it tonight as very late home from work