Histerectomy....

[Skipy]

Is it the weather?

Miranda, if you dont know WHY, please dont offer your opinion when all it does is be offensive!!! YES I am thinking about health of my dog, but thanks, its really nice that there are always such experienced and knowledged people to offer their help.

Nekhbet, if I was an expert or had vast knowledge on this particular issue, would I be asking. I was refering to estrogen hormone and that its only produced by ovaries.

blissirritated, if you look through this site you'll see info as to why I dont want to desex her fully.

I think this will just become another pro and anti desexing topic which I am not interested in.....

Edited December 7, 2006 by Skipy

[peibe]

Just because you did not hear what you wanted to hear does not give you the right to abuse people

Seems you are thinking more about yourself than your dog

She will still act as if she is in season, mood swings etc, when she mates she will still have phantom pregnancies

[cowanbree]

I have owned a bitch in who was spayed incorrectly in that part of one of the ovaries was left behind by accident. She most definitely attracted male dogs, wanted to mate, experienced false pregnancies and ultimately got mammary cancer which resulted in 3 different surgeries. I do not believe this has any benefit over leaving a bitch entire other than the risk of pregnancy is removed. It is my personal belief that spay incontinence is due to poor surgical technique rather than lacking hormones so you would still have the same risks here

[Dogs4Fun]

What I would like, are the following answers: 1. As cowanbree said, she will still attract dogs

"Some owners see hysterectomy or tubal ligation as a way to sterilize the pet, yet still allow her to experience heat cycles and participate in mating. "

See this quote in my post above. Does this not answer this question for you?

Well no, because tubal ligation still leaves the uterus intact, so I dont think you can necessarily compare it to hysterectomy.

Perhaps slow down and read the posts properly before firing off. It says HYSTERECTOMY OR TUBAL LIGATION in the above. The ovaries are the same, the hormones are the same, the behavioural effects are the same.

And it is hYsterectomy, not hIsterectomy. Wasn't going to pick, but you're not being very polite here.

[morgan]

And it is hYsterectomy, not hIsterectomy. Wasn't going to pick, but you're not being very polite here.

Skipy wisely stated there was no desire to rehash the whole desexing debate and asked two specific questions to help make an informed decision.

In return, Skipy has been accused of being selfish, anthropomorphic, trying to stir up trouble and "not being very polite". As Skipy's views on desexing have been made very clear in previous discussions on desexing, why bring up the same old objections? Why not just answer the questions or leave it alone?

As many other posters have said in past discussions, cutting off hormones can cause life altering problems for some dogs, just as it can have life altering benefits - hence the need for an informed decision.

[sidoney]

So that's two posters (me and cowanbree) that have had semi-spayed dogs with ovaries, and both had to have THREE operations for mammary tumours. A small sample size, sure, but IMO that's a good argument for removing the ovaries. The mammary tumour ops that my girl had were quite large ops, with tumours all down the mammary strips.

I chose to leave the ovaries in (in about 1983 this was) because of the hormone thing but had I had more information I would have made a different choice. And have done since.

Edit: I suppose one COULD choose to remove the mammary strips altogether, like the women who have genetic dispositions to mammary tumours and have double mastectomies. I found the mammary strip ops to be quite hard on my dog who was older by then.

Edited December 7, 2006 by sidoney

[Florise]

Skipy, can you get in touch with a reproductive vet perhaps to ask your questions? I would be interested to know as well.

I think it is not something that standard vets would be keen to do.

I don't blame you for "not being very polite"

[Skipy]

DOgs4fun - I am not being polite? Hm, when I am called selfish, strangely, I dont like it very much.

Thanks for the spelling, check breeder's section I have posted there also with right spelling, in case this one is really hurting your eyes......

cowanbree- thanks, yes that would be the problem if males are still attracted and I if I need to separate them anyway, there is not much point. I thought that removing uterus would solve that, but that is looking like it might not be the case...

[morgan]

There are other ways of treating mammary tumours - not involving surgery. There are also dietary supplements that will greatly decrease the chance of any cancer, so desexing is not the be-all and end-all for preventing this type of cancer.

[sidoney]

Perhaps not, and it is something that I have to take into account as a breeder, BUT having lived through multiple surgeries for my girl when she was in her early teens, I can say it was very unpleasant and difficult for both of us.

So far I'm one of the only people who has done what has been asked, and I am stating why I would not do it again. Fair enough, IMO. My choice at that time put my dog through a lot of pain and unpleasantness later.

It may not be what the OP wants to hear. However I can speak from my experience here, not from having researched pros and cons. It is possible that the OP's dog may not have the problems mine did. But I owe it to my dog and to the OP's to mention what happened.

Edited December 7, 2006 by sidoney

[Miranda]

Miranda, if you dont know WHY, please dont offer your opinion when all it does is be offensive!!! YES I am thinking about health of my dog, but thanks, its really nice that there are always such experienced and knowledged people to offer their help.

Skipy this is a public forum and I am perfectly entitled to offer an opinion if I wish to do so, the fact that you choose to find it offensive because it's not what you wanted to hear is unfortunate. I do not write posts to offend, I write posts to try to help the dogs involved, but if these posts happen to offend the humans then so be it. It is my opinion that what you are planning to do is complicated and unnecessary and may cause problems for your bitch when she is older and that is why I posted, the fact that you may or may not have been offended wasn't a consideration.

I would suggest that you discuss these matters with a reproductive vet, you really need someone qualified to advise you.

[Skipy]

sidoney thanks for your replies. OK, so in your case she did not attract males?

As far as mammary tumors, I dont quite understand, do you think it was in any way worse than in intact female or are you talking about the fact that she was "intact" in a way (just clarifying).

I know that there are risks both ways, I guess I am thinking I would rather they get something because nature intended it that way, than to get something else due to my interfering.

[sidoney]

I think the tumours came because she was "intact" (sort of) but never actually used them. Now I can't directly relate people to dogs but I recall that women who did not breast feed were at slightly higher risk than those that did. It's *possible* that something similar might be in effect here. I would have to do some research to see if there actually was a link. But, I think it is possible that my decision meant she was more likely to get tumours than my breeding bitches, who use their mammary glands! If there is anything else I don't know it, since I don't know what the finer points of the uterus and its effects are, but again there is some possibility of having ovaries but no uterus might change the body's chemistry in some way. It's worth checking out.

I was startled to find that cowanbree's girl also had three operations for mammary tumours. That got me thinking. As I say, two out of two is in no way a sample that is generalisable, but it did seem to be something of a coincidence.

Other than the mammary strip tumours I actually didn't notice much of a difference between my girl and a desexed girl, although it was some time ago, so the finer points may be lost. She did cohabit with entire males most of her life. Oh and she was late onset epileptic, IMO due to a skull fracture when she was a pup and then being whacked by a stick years later. So with managing the epilepsy and coping with the tumours, we had a lot to contend with.

Edit: I am thinking about it, and I think that there may have been some regular changes that could be associated with cycling, that decreased as she got older. I don't remember that any dogs mated her. But it was about 20 years ago so I'm a bit vague as to just what happened.

Edited December 7, 2006 by sidoney

[curlygirl]

Skippy I'm a registered veterinary nurse. In answer to your questions, your bitch will still be attractive to male dogs and act like a bitch in season. In bitches the bladder doesn't hold up the uterus as dogs are on all fours not on two legs like people. Incontinence in spayed bitches is due to a lack of hormones not lack of support from the bladder. Not all speyed bitches get incontinence. An entire bitch or one with just her ovaries is more likely to get mammary tumours, with the incidence of this increasing after her third season. In my experience ( vet nursing for 20 yrs) I would not reccomend that a person only had a hysterectomy done on their bitch.

[Greytmate]

It is my personal belief that spay incontinence is due to poor surgical technique rather than lacking hormones so you would still have the same risks here

Incontinence in spayed bitches is due to a lack of hormones not lack of support from the bladder.

My vet who is a canine reproductive specialist told me that most spay incontinence is due to a lack in hormones, but some spay incontinence has been found to be a result of poor surgical technique.

Spay incontinence doesn't seem to be as common as ovarian or mammary cancer.

[HOGWARTZBOXERS]

Skipy, What you have decided is right , everything you said is right, your bitch will be fine ,no males will hang around her , she wont need any other operations.

Isn't that what you really wanted to hear, rather than some very well educated diagnoises and experience from long term breeders that have had simmilar issues and offered to try and help you out? sorry but you are the weakest link good night. Shayne......unleash the hounds!

[KOE]

Skipy, What you have decided is right , everything you said is right, your bitch will be fine ,no males will hang around her , she wont need any other operations.

Isn't that what you really wanted to hear, rather than some very well educated diagnoises and experience from long term breeders that have had simmilar issues and offered to try and help you out? sorry but you are the weakest link good night. Shayne......unleash the hounds!

dag

[kamuzz]

Skippy I'm a registered veterinary nurse. In answer to your questions, your bitch will still be attractive to male dogs and act like a bitch in season. In bitches the bladder doesn't hold up the uterus as dogs are on all fours not on two legs like people. Incontinence in spayed bitches is due to a lack of hormones not lack of support from the bladder. Not all speyed bitches get incontinence. bitch.

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Does this mean a bitch with her uterus left in is just as likely to develop spay incontinence as a conventionally desexed bitch?

[morgan]

Does this mean a bitch with her uterus left in is just as likely to develop spay incontinence as a conventionally desexed bitch?

An entire bitch will not get spay incontinence. It may become incontinent through old age, but usually not as a young bitch.

Sterilisation through leaving the uterus and doing tubal ligation increases the chances of pyometra and allows for perfectly normal seasons (except for no chance of pregnancy). Should think that this op would be a complete waste of time unless used for sterilising very young pups while allowing normal hormones for normal growth. Removing ovaries and leaving the uterus would be entirely nonsensical.

None of my bitches have ever been desexed before 7 yrs, none have ever become incontinent, and two have developed mammary cancer, which was fixed with a single lumpectomy and desexing. These two were the only ones I have ever had desexed. Have only ever had a single case of pyo in one of my breeding, and that was no longer my bitch at the time.

Mammary tumours and pyo don't always happen, just as spay incontinence doesn't always happen.

[Ceilidh]

As I said in the other post, my vet said that my bitch would still act like a bitch in season, attract dogs and want to mate. The only reason for leaving the ovaries was to maintain a correct coat for showing. No, I wasn't going to show her in normal classes but Veterans (they can be desexed for Veterans).