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Forced Retrieve Versus Other Methods


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DD:

Question: Would you agree that most trialling dogs start life as simple pets purchased without intention of trialling?

K9: Most in where? Australia? possibly but I would also say that many trialling clubs arent getting many or sometimes any passes eac year, what does that say?

Question: Would you really get rid of a pet in order to get a retreiving dog?

K9: No, but I wouldnt have a "pet", as a retriever.

Question: Are you so against obedience trialling that you find need to twist every sentence I and others have written in order to mock people?

K9: I am not against trialling at all, in fact I spend a great deal of time training people to overcome trialling problems.

I am sorry if you think I am mocking you, I wasnt, if & or when I do, you will clearly know it.

I have only copied & pasted your sentences, not twisted (altered) them in any way.

I can appreciate that you are a qualified person but surely this cant be good for your business?

K9: Well, thanks for the "business" advice, but its going great thank you. I would also like to point out that I am not running a business here, I am posting just like you are. My "business" isnt posting on DOL...

I do however appreciate your constructive thoughts on the matter.

K9: well your welcome, I will add as I feel I have something to add.

I would like to add that I certainly bother to teach a pet fetch forcefully because fetch is play, retrieve IMO is work.

K9: Its comments like these that will get you "mocked" buddy....

If fetching is playing, why pinch the pets ear? It is sort f like beaing our kid if he doesnt win the football game, well I guess that happens...

Why is it so important to have a "play" fetch?

Edited by K9 Force
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WS: Certainly that is a possibility, but IMO it very much depends on the trainer. I have seen many, many dogs that were FRed in this way that were extremely driven/snappy(fast)/happy/determined retrievers.

K9: I think depends more on your eye for detail..

Watch many a retriever take off after a bird, pick it up all done in high drive, then it trotts back to the handler, "trotts back?" why not fly back?

Where do most comp dogs wash out? Is it when it comes to handing over the bird? Do some get mouthy, do some fail to give the bird?

I have seen a lot of this.

Most of the dog training clubs are not focused on trailling........

K9: I said TRIALLING CLUBS, I didnt mention anything about training clubs...

Edited by K9 Force
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M: Can you pls provide examples of few in Sydney that are focused on trials as their main aim?

K9: I am sure you would like me to state the names of the clubs I am talking about, but I see no value in publically devaluing the clubs names.

I cannot see how that has anything to do with the FR either.

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K9: DD, lets say you look at this from my angle for a moment, here is a brief insight to how I work...

Hypothetical.

1. existing dog.

2. goal, pet, fetch.

3. primary drive (would be tested but lets say) food.

4. owners experience minimal

First, increase the dogs drive (desire for food), there are ways this can be done in play for food... excitement etc..

Second, have the dog take the dumbell or similar in its mouth, just a second, then a release command & then feed.

Third, the dog can onl buy the food for a prolonged hold, maybe 2 seconds a this stage.

then build this time...

Now have the dog hold & sit, then step away, add bring command & have the dog come to you, only need two steps, the release & feed.

Its this line of thought that will quickly train the fetch with no pinch..

If done in clear steps, the dog will be able to do it reliably...

There are of course bridges & markers alog the way as guiders to desired & undesired behaviours....

Edited by K9 Force
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M: PM will be fine.

K9: just hold your breath until it gets there....

Maybe you missed the part

K9: I cannot see how that has anything to do with the FR either.

I am sure you wont have to look far to find a club that trains trialling steps with few to no passes...

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M: K9s description - this is how basic retrieve is tought at my club.

K9: this is just a basic description of how the motivational retrieve is tAught.

The success & or failures are in the details, most people are in too much of a rush to look closley at the details.

M: I will add that the club doesnt focus on trialling AT ALL.

K9: did anyone say they did?

M: Thanks for you HELP

K9: how would a list of clubs that have seen failing Australia wide help you? It wouldnt, just keep holding your breath lol...

Edited by K9 Force
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Hi K9

Would you use prey drive in place of food for a trialling dog using your methods? The example you have used was for playing fetch? As I said before, I personally would not use any forcefull method to play fetch with my dog because I hold no importance whatsoever on my dog being able to do this, but yours sounds like a great method to do so.

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dont like it wont use it have seen it used its uneccesary

if your goal is trialling then a motivational retrieve is perfect i have watched the forced retrieve abused on too many occasions its much harder to abuse a food trianed retrieve.

I feel some people are willing to go to far for the sake of a ribbon and piece of paper and sadly guys the forced retrieve s actually usd a lot more than you think most triallers i know use it they also use earpinches for reminders to pay attention under the idea that in the ring you can then pat ears and the dog knows what will come

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DD: Would you use prey drive in place of food for a trialling dog using your methods?

K9: well the real answer is "maybe". remember this detail...

K9: 3. primary drive (would be tested but lets say) food.

K9: I would be locating the dogs primary drive, & what ever that was, using it as the motivator yes... Thats the very basic program anyway...

Edited by K9 Force
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K9: this is just a basic description of how the motivational retrieve is tAught.

good that we do something right :)

K9: how would a list of clubs that have seen failing Australia wide help you?

100 trialists with 20 passes v's no trialists

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K9: My point is, I consult for a few clubs, Australia wide, not just Sydney.

problem, members leaving all the time...

reasons found, club teaching trialling steps, people wanted well behaved pet, or had a dog that wasnt capable of passing the higher titles, clubs goal wasnt members goal =

members leaving, club no titles...

So m answer to DD question, was to show that just because people are attempting to trial with a dog not intended to trial, doesnt mean success...

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Watch many a retriever take off after a bird, pick it up all done in high drive, then it trotts back to the handler, "trotts back?" why not fly back?

I agree, dog should fly out and back with equal speed. Flying back means getting to do the next retrieve faster, which is something every good retriever wants. A properly FRed dog will do this. An abused dog will trot back, fearful of returning to the trainer, but this abuse, not correct use of FRing.

I'm not knocking your motivational methods, approx half the working gundogs in the world are trained to retrieve along these lines. The other half are FRed. There are pros and cons to both.

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WS: I agree, dog should fly out and back with equal speed. Flying back means getting to do the next retrieve faster, which is something every good retriever wants. A properly FRed dog will do this. An abused dog will trot back, fearful of returning to the trainer, but this abuse, not correct use of FRing.

K9: If the goal is the next retrieve, why would the dog ever stop on a whistle?

Stop going after the goal? why?

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