Forced Retrieve Versus Other Methods

[Working_Setters]

K9: If the goal is the next retrieve, why would the dog ever stop on a whistle?

Stop going after the goal? why?

My dogs (all driven dogs??) don't want to stop to whistle, they stop b/c they know from past experience it will be unpleasant if they ignore the whistle

[wheres my rock]

only 1% of people who join clubs get past novice trialling a firnd did a survey a few years back that was the result

actualy we find the opposite about clubs most dont focuss enough on trial work and then epopel want to trial and have to be retaught

[wheres my rock]

must add i would not send soemone to a club if their goal was trial work i'd send he private to someone wo can tech the requirements personally i only use clubs for distraction

[Steve K9Pro]

WS: My dogs (all driven dogs??) don't want to stop to whistle, they stop b/c they know from past experience it will be unpleasant if they ignore the whistle

K9: I guess its the same when it comes to handing over the quarry, not short cutting to the poison bird, cheating the water etc etc... There seems to be a lot of "unpleasantness" or the threat of, floatng around training fields.

We all know that aversives lower & sometimes extinguish drive. Thats what they are designed to do.

So if I personally buy a dog full of drive, & want to use that drive to work that dog, I steer away from methods that reduce, inhibit, lower or extinguish the very thing I bought the dog for.... but thats just me.

There will always be some aprehension around the areas of unpleasantness, aprehension is a sign of aversive training.

before I finish this topic, i would like to add just this....

Its about Magic...

People love magic because they cant see how the trick was done....

Once the magician shows them, its not magic any more, the mystique, or lets say magic, is gone....

I think high end dog sports or working dogs should look like magic....

You shouldnt be able to see avoidance on the dog, I dont even like hand signals for close work, I want people to watch & see not one clue as to how I got the dog to do that, when its done right, people call it magic...

When the dog ducks it head or drops its ears on hearing the command, returns slowly, doesnt stop on the whistle, it is a clear indicator of whats on the dogs mind, when that is obvious, the magic is gone..

[wheres my rock]

love that desciption k9 thast how i feel i want the picture to look effortless like ballroom dancers and you do see apprehension in adog even when subtle i showed a video to a friend of one of vics top dogs working and they straight away noticed its slight head duck and reluctance they dont even own a dog

[dogdude]

K9:

Isn't the slinking dog look also a clear sign that a dog is unsure of mechanics of an exercise and not only a "sign of aversive training? Most dogs overcome the "slinky dog look" when they are totally clear about an exercise and I feel generalising can be misleading.

Take the drop on recall for instance: At first dog slows dramatically upon the down command because the second command cancels out the first, but after clear understanding, gets back to normal speed. As most novice triallers want to move into open asap their dogs are often caught in transition. The same can be said of retreive on occasions. In my own experience I have found that as long as the dog is motivated, you wont have a slinky dog unless it is not clear on what is required.

What are your thoughts on this?

[wheres my rock]

funny mine dont slow down when i add the drop

i can see what your saying and being unsure will often affect a performance as will nerves etc ive seen dogs trial that look beaten but i know for a fact they havent same as wagging tails arent necessarily happy dogs.

the question though is about the orced retrieve so i ask you this

why would you use a forced retrieve what is your reasoning

[dogdude]

Hi Wheres my rock:

To answer that question, I would have to say that its probably for the same reason that you think your method is best, it works, and I have a happy dog while working.

Is the ear pinch method any harsher than a check chain or prong collar? The answer is no, they are all designed to acheive the same compliance when used correctly.

I am not saying anything against positive methods of retreive either. I knew this would create an interesting subject for people to debate and it will highlight different peoples points and views which is great!

Edited December 7, 2006 by dogdude

[MonElite]

I new this would create an interesting subject for people to debate and it will highlight different peoples points and views which is great!

and I belive this is one of the purposes of any forum.

Glad to be able to participate even if its in a small way.

I also know that I preffer to use the motivational method or would use the clicker method before Id try forcing.

[wheres my rock]

heres my issue

ive seen too many people abuse the method my belief is that when using more negative methods many people go a little further and further until what they are doign is cruel wereas with more postive methods even if they go to far they end up with a fat dog or a very hyper one

If ts acceptable to pinch a dogs ear to get i to open ts mouth then it could also be seen as acceptable to to pinch the ear harder f it doesnt i have watched a dog have its head rammed into the ground by an earpinch for not gettign the right article noone said anything until i jumped in and complained to the club president

I dont see an earpinch in the same box as a prong collar your using earpinch to teach trick you require for trialling whereas prong collars are used to stop a problem that could be the differnce between a dg being exercised or given away

does that make sense

[Working_Setters]

K9: I guess its the same when it comes to handing over the quarry, not short cutting to the poison bird, cheating the water etc etc... There seems to be a lot of "unpleasantness" or the threat of, floatng around training fields.

K9 - There's no doubt that there are times of unpleasantness when I train a gundog, but please don't misunderstand me, the VAST majority of my training is positive. Exercises are broken down into small, achievable steps, dogs successfully achieve these steps and are rewarded for doing so. If however, once a dog has learnt an exercise it decides not to obey, there will be some unpleasantness. A trained dog ignoring the stop whistle and chasing a rabbit is one such example.

Every successful working gundog trainer I'm aware of uses some unpleasantness in their training from time to time. Temptations are extremely high for working gundogs, rabbits and ducks at close range, blood and other exciting scents abound. Yes, working gundog owners want driven, enthusiastic dogs. We want far more energy and enthusiasm than the major of dog owners, so we're very mindful of not being overly physical and sapping that enthusiasm. However, all that energy and enthusiasm needs to be controlled, which in the opinion of every successful gundog trainer I'm aware of requires some unpleasantness from time to time. Again it's not the amount of unpleasantness that's key, but the timing and application appropriate to the dog in question.

If you are telling me you can achieve a fully trained, reliable working gundog, a driven dog that goes hard and performs to trial standard without any unpleasantness, then I'll happily part with the $$ for you to teach me. But I have high standards and know a lot of gundog trainers here and in the USA, and as I said, none achieve these results without unpleasantness from time to time.

[dogdude]

Wheres my rock

I can see what your saying but the only connection I made regarding prongs is that they use no more force, and are often misconcepted like them. Like all other forms of aversive type training, there will always be someone that abuses it. That is why I think it is an execise that should be learnt under close supervision like any other form of training.

The main reason I originally learnt the method was that the club that I originally attended gave me no alternatives when their method didnt work. Have you ever tried to teach a Bull Terrier anything let alone retrieve? This method worked a treat for me and I suppose I have used it for most of my following dogs except one (which was trained using positive methods) who I found to be an unreliable retriever. Without too much thought, went back to the forced retrieve and never had a problem again. This is just my experience and why I beleive in using it.

Working in Prey drive has me interested and I have purchased an orbee. I am interested in all forms of training. Think I will have to wait for my next dog though as I have finished the main part of his training using a mixture of aversive and positive methods.

Edited December 7, 2006 by dogdude

[wheres my rock]

we use a positive retrieve for want of a better term and always had good reliability so maybe if you were going it alone you missed something along the way

i have no doubt the forced retrieve is reliable but so it the strangle rtrive and the dogs look great racing out and back but you have to draw a line somewhere weve trained heaps of different dogs to retrieve from whippets to beagles to gundogs to spitzes including a spitz that had been beaten and wouldnt even look at a toy or put nayhting near its mouth all had reliable retrieves

personaly if my only optiont o get a dog inot open was a forced retrieve i'd take up agility

[dogdude]

Wheres my rock:

Personal choices aside, would you not take a dog to obedience rather than to put a check chain on it? What is the difference in the harshness of the correction? Check chain uses a more dangerous level than the forced retrieve.

What are your thoughts?

[wheres my rock]

i dont use check chains if i was looking to take a dog to trianing then i'd be a novice and wouldnt have the knowledge but i would still look to soemone who uses other methods my first dog wore a chain for one day at club then i threw it n the bin he was dog aggressive the instructor strung him up for having ago at another dog the dog tried to go her through fear after that i swore i wouldnt never use one

tht same dog trialled to ud and never showed aggression after about three months of trianing

[dogdude]

Wheres my rock If someone hung my dog i'd be tempted to put it on them!

Unfortunately, some clubs have huge bank accounts but dont use it to further educate their volunteer instructors. I here Myszka's club are leaps and bounds above many others in this regard?

[wheres my rock]

sad but true i wish they would spend more time however this instructor is someone who is very well regarded in the dog world we have spoken at lenght about instructor trianing sadly thoguh we need volunteer instructors to keep clubs going its hard when there is never enough and those that do put their hand up are often vry inexperienced

[leopuppy04]

How exactly do you define a 'forced retrieve'?????

I think there are many interpretations of it. I would NEVER consider doing a proper forced retrieve (opening the mouth and slamming it shut and holding it TIGHT) nor would I ever consider doing an ear pinch to get my dog to retrieve. The Steve Austin technique is about as 'forced' as I would go. As I am probably getting known around these parks as preferring 'positive' or 'motivational' methods, I did use a forced retrieve on my boy to get the point across (that sounds so mean, but it wasn't really).. I have ended up with a dog that LOVES to retrieve and hold the d/b.

So here is my story:

My dog (as most working dogs) LOVES to retrieve. but also like most working dogs, he likes to spit it out at your feet or carry it around chewing it! So as hard as I tried I couldn't get him to hold it. I tried the clicker method. It worked.... up until getting him to clasp down on the d/b. Sure... I could have persisted, but when I was already trying to move on from there for quite a while and it always ended up with the dog or me getting frustrated, I thought i'd give this a go.

Note that since my dog was a pup I had often opened his mouth to shove a treat down etc, simply because I knew that at some stage he would need to take tablets, and I didn't want him to hate his mouth being opened. He was really good at 'taking' objects just not 'holding' them. So when the d/b was in his mouth, I would gently hold his mouth closed saying 'hold'.... always got lots of play and a big treat for this. I wanted to make it MORE enjoyable than unpleasent so we always got NICE things after this. It didn't take him long to get the point across. I'd ask him to 'take' and as soon as his mouth would open a tad, C&T. Then Hold, and if his mouth clasped down C&T.... I wanted to teach him 'take' as I didn't want the mouth opening to be so aversive or anything like that.

Everything else fell into place because he had a natural prey drive so he would initially fetch the toy when on the move, then i'd make him wait longer and longer etc. To get the finish - I did it the normal C&T way... it was just getting the hold which was done 'forced'.

To me, this is not, cruel, mean or anything detrimental to my dog. Our retrieve is not yet perfect, but that is because he picks it up from the end. He is more than happy to play d/b and to me that is a testament that I haven't done anything wrong as if I had, my dog certianly wouldn't be zooming out and zooming back for the d/b and begging me for more!

[jesomil]

I have seen the forced retrieve produce confident, happy retrievers when used properly.

I have not used it as i have found the positive retrieve so far to work well for my situations but i wouldnt be against using it if required.

Of course i am talking purely about the retrieve exercises in an obedience trial, not playing fetch at the park. If a dog doesnt want to play fetch in the park, who cares? If you have a brilliant trial dog but are stuck at one exercise, i dont believe you would cast everything else aside and start afresh with a dog that was a natural retriever just for one exercise.

Interesting topic of discussions and some very interesting replies.

Edited December 7, 2006 by jesomil

[Kavik]

I am not a huge fan of the forced retrieve. Like some others, if I couldn't get the dog to retrieve using positive methods, well we wouldn't do retrieving. It is not absolutely necessary to have the dog retrieve. I know that it works, but I am uncomfortable with the method.

I have had the most success using a clicker, especially with the initial hold part which is where I had my biggest problems. Speed is starting to come now too although Diesel may never be the fastest retriever ever. As with most things, Zoe is super fast but Diesel is more accurate and easier to fix problems