Herding Rule Question

[dasha]

I have seen and heard a fair bit about this new herding craze in the last 12 months or so and after what I have seen and heard, a few questions have come to mind and a few concerns have also entered my mind. I would just like some experienced herding triallers to to clarify a few things so I can rest easy.

I have not participated myself in this activity and at this stage will just stick with 3 sheep trialling and yard work until a few things are sorted regarding the herding.

One of my major concerns is the amount of "grippy" dogs there are that are allowed amongst the innocent prey animals with relatively little control over the K9 component of the team. I have seen some rather agressive tendancies from some dogs and have heard of some rather nasty injuries sustained by sheep by particular dogs on numerous occassions. I am wondering at what point does the Regulatory body decide that a dog has not got the desired traits to be a herding dog and if there is any kind of reprimands to owners of such unsuitable dogs. Like are owners asked not to bring the dog back for 6 months or something like they do if a dog bites at any other obedience/agility trial scenario. If trainers are running clinics to encourage herding people are they also obliged to inform the Reg body of any unacceptable behaviour like submitting incident reports or something similar so that any incident is documented so that if there is a trend for say an individual dog has repeatedly done wrong, the owner can be asked not to bring that dog back until it is better trained or until it passes an assessment of suitability or something. At what point does someone take responsibilty for the types of dogs and their actions.

Another major concern I have is the welfare of the sheep. I know that Yard Dog triallers and 3 sheep triallers have battled constantly with animal welfare organisations and are constantly under their watchful eye. These sheep sports have had to have the sheeps welfare at the absolute top of the list on any given day. Dogs that bite are removed, dogs that run the sheep too much are generally either asked to retire, on a hot day a trial may be cancelled as the sheep will be too hot to be moved around a course with highly trained experienced dogs.

I worry that if any of the animal welfare see or hear of any of the things I have seen so far in such a short amount of time that herding has been around, that any sport that uses sheep with be entirely banned. If all sheep trialling is banned due to the short term gain for a few titles or "just to let the dog have a bit of fun" it will be a terrible day. People will gather at canine grounds one day and reminise(sp) of the days there used to be sheep dog trials.

So if anyone can please provide any information to settle my mind, I would be forever grateful. I am not looking to get flamed or anything, just some sensible answers.

[jesomil]

I have never seen or had anything to do with "herding" trialling or training. Lets hope this kind of stuff doesnt happen often.

[mjk05]

I've heard these concerns expressed a few times, and understand where they're coming from. I have my own ethical issues with using "herding" or even sheepdog trials purely as a venue for dogs and owners to have fun, rather than as a testing forum for training and breeding effective working dogs.

But I have been to a few herding trials, and haven't seen all that much to concern animal libbers. Judges warn handlers to control their dog the first time they bite or snap, and I expect on the second occasion (or if its serious) the dog is removed. I have seen a fair number of dogs chasing in the test classes (esp instinct level)- but given that these are often dogs that have almost no experience or training (and often not working-bred), its not unexpected. The sheep used are super-dogged training sheep at those levels (from what I've seen), and are pretty used to those sort of dogs, so it doesn't seem to stress them excessively.

To be totally honest, dogs do grip in 3sheep and yard trials, and I've seen a sheep killed (not by a dog, but still). And lots of these working-bred dogs have a bite in them when they first start training- its just that this doesn't happen at sanctioned events.

I think they are talking about removing the instinct test anyway, so all dogs will have a level more training before entering ANKC events.

[popcorn]

Unfortunately I have witnessed incidences that you have just described and I was absolutely appalled at the lack of concern these particular owners have for the unacceptable behaviour of their dogs.

In my opinion, it should be the responsibility of the clubs who are organising these herding/training days to prevent the uncontrollable or 'grippy" dogs from coming back. As far as I am concerned, the money you pay for the trial or herding day should be forfeited if your dog attacks sheep and this money should be used for the veterinary treatment of the sheep.

From what I have seen , the people who have these types of dogs have little regard for the damage these dogs inflict on the sheep.

Unless something is done by the clubs as a whole to prevent uncontrollable, vicious dogs from competing and passing in instinct tests, I can see that herding days will definitely be a thing of the past. From the events I have witnessed over the past few months, it will only take one person from one welfare organisation to report these acts of cruelty and herding will be banned forever.

As in lots of things, it only takes a minority group to destroy a good thing for everybody else.

[Vickie]

I'm right with you, Dasha!

What concerns me is that some of these dogs need 6-12 months training, often with a muzzle, just to pass an instinct test. To me this is wrong. Instinct should not have to be trained, week after week. These dogs may end up obedient on sheep, but this is not instinct.

I have been to watch a couple of days now. I took my camera to one. There were some talented dogs there, but the first 4-5 dogs I took pics of had no intention other than to bite the sheep & I have a number of photos showing them doing just that. What truly horrified me was that a couple of those owners came and asked if they could get copies of my photos. I told them they weren't great pics so not worth it. One lady told me I she didn't care that they were out of focus, she wanted them. I told her the photos were good quality, but they were bad shots of what her dog was doing (since that's pretty much all it did, it was hard to get anything else). She didn't care & wanted the pics anyway, so it would show her dog's progress. I told her I would send them...NOT!

BTW, she passed.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Vickie

[jesomil]

I was talking to a friend the other day and she was telling me about a dog that is a known biter. It has seriously damaged sheep before. BUT the worst part is that she saw it at a trial recently and it got another sheep!!

These dogs should be outed from the sport. Sheepdog work isnt about training for years to get some form of control of a dog chasing sheep. It is about harnessing the natural instincts of the dog and as someone else said before trialling is a testing forum for the training and breeding of effective working dogs.

I have never seen any "herding", so i cant really comment too much. I am just going off what i have been told.

I dont belive a title after a name means a great deal. I am yet to see a show bred dog show much real work. I mean, how can they? They were used for herding hundreds of years ago but since then have been bred purely on their looks. The working bred dogs have been bred purely for their work ability with looks not coming into it. Therefore the show dogs are far prettier but the working bred are far workier (is that a word?? ).

But on the other hand, i would be interested to hear others opinions and experiences.

[mjk05]

I am yet to see a show bred dog show much real work. I mean, how can they?

Occasionally you do get the odd chance dog that shows some good instincts. I have a friend with a pure show bred dog that met sheep for the first time as an adult (maybe 5yrs old) and switched on pretty much straight away. She does have a chomp, but then so do lots of working bred dogs, and she also has nice pace and distance, and textbook square flanks (with zero training). Her downfall is that she's not fast enough to get around really runny sheep, and tires easily (but then she's older, and has some physical problems), and she's fairly weak (but then so are lots of working bred dogs- esp trial bred dogs).

I'm a total believer that working ability is bred for, and that breeding shows in working ability. But there are the odd dogs about (in the minority) that have lucky-dipped some working ability, despite not being bred for it. They don't compare to a good working-bred dog, but they do have some working ability.

Sheepdog work isnt about training for years to get some form of control of a dog chasing sheep. It is about harnessing the natural instincts of the dog and as someone else said before trialling is a testing forum for the training and breeding of effective working dogs.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, so please people don't jump me- but if animal welfare is our primary concern, should city-based people, or anyone with no real need for a working dog, be doing sheepdog training at all?

After all, we have no reason to do it, other than for enjoyment for ourselves and our dogs. We might take it super-seriously, we might have very well-bred dogs, but we don't NEED those dogs to work sheep.

Plus many well-bred working dogs stress sheep in some way when first starting- either they chase a little, or have the odd swipe or grip, or work too close. Undoubtedly city-based novices won't train and handle their dogs as well as someone who has lots of experience at it, and training a dog once a week often takes longer than every day. I've watched some friends with very well-bred dogs, from international working lines, do once a week/once a month/twice a year training with their dogs, coming along to clinics etc, and while their dogs show heaps of ability, they do occasionally do silly things (stressing sheep) and haven't made as much progress as they could if they were owned by someone else. It doesn't really matter to their owners, they were bought as agility dogs and are just doing this because their owners enjoy it or out of curiosity. But given that they are never going to be NEEDED to work stock- should they be doing it at all?

Even if people go on to do working sheepdog trials with these dogs, what's the point? If one animal libber comes along to a working stockdog clinic and sees one of these working-bred dogs with their inexperienced handler do something silly, and a sheep get bitten or stressed, how can we justify that?

(remember, devil's advocate- I've come from the city and the agility world, and have only recently needed a working dog)

[jesomil]

I'm playing devil's advocate here, so please people don't jump me- but if animal welfare is our primary concern, should city-based people, or anyone with no real need for a working dog, be doing sheepdog training at all?

Very interesting thought. I guess city based dogs will probably never have to use their skills in a real working environment therefore we are doing it purely for pleasure.

But we are still showing off the lines and their abilities as their parents and brothers and sisters are all all real working dogs.

I am a country person wanna be !!! I trial even though we are city people because i love the breed and their abilities and even more adore being out in the country and around country people and livestock etc. I love showing off my dogs breeding as well. But we are lucky in the fact that my dogs can work stock every day and they do have a use at home.

I guess i am doing it purely for my dogs and my pleasure. If i couldnt work the dogs i would have gone for another breed.

I also realise that lots of working bred dogs bite and stress sheep. It has alot to do with their breeding and a huge amount to do with the person trying to train them. One of my working bred dogs is not a great worker. She would be alright on a farm doing small chores but is completely useless for what i want her for. She has too much bite and too little eye. I dont take her to training and i dont trial her as she will never be suitable.

Even if people go on to do working sheepdog trials with these dogs, what's the point? If one animal libber comes along to a working stockdog clinic and sees one of these working-bred dogs with their inexperienced handler do something silly, and a sheep get bitten or stressed, how can we justify that?

Inexperienced handlers are a problem with everything, not just with city people.

Its hard to draw a line. There are some city based triallers out there and many from where i come from that do really well and are brilliant handlers and win repeatedly over farm dogs doing regular real work.

Even if people go on to do working sheepdog trials with these dogs, what's the point?

I think there is still a point. They are showing the dogs breeding, ability and trainability.

[mjk05]

But we are still showing off the lines and their abilities as their parents and brothers and sisters are all all real working dogs. ....I think there is still a point. They are showing the dogs breeding, ability and trainability.

Yes, I agree with that. If most of the littermates (and future siblings) are going to be working dogs, it does give a more complete picture for the breeder of what he/she is producing if even the pet/sports/city homed dogs are at least started on sheep.

But how about if all the pups are only sold to agility homes, eg litters from working-bred parents, but bred specifically for agility/pet homes. Same deal?

How about people with rescue dogs, that appear to be working bred, but no-one knows where they come from. Same deal?

Its hard to draw a line. There are some city based triallers out there and many from where i come from that do really well and are brilliant handlers and win repeatedly over farm dogs doing regular real work.

Yep, but there are also lots of us who suck We might have the odd good run, a few average ones, and lots of terrible runs. But if our dog stresses one sheep unnecessarily, is that justifiable? So how do we draw the line between someone who takes 6 months to get their working-bred city dog going well on sheep, with the odd bite and swipe, and someone who takes 2 years to get their non-working-bred city dog going vaguely OK (or even well) on sheep? Neither person NEEDS the dog to work, so whether its 6 months or 2 years, its all unnecessary and "for fun" in some people's eyes.

That also starts the whole "trial vs. work" debate. Some very successful trial dogs aren't any good for "real work", they have qualities that make them perfect for the 3sheep trial, with certain types of handling/training. But they don't have the adaptability to do "real work" as well. I know some dogs can- but not all. As a farmer first and trialler second, you need to be pretty selective in buying a dog from triallers who don't farm, or only keep a hobby farm. The sort of dogs that have been bred for generations for 3sheep trials are not necessarily going to cope with the needs of a "real" working job. The only way to really prove it is if those trial dogs are in "real working" homes. So maybe all sheepdog trials should be restricted only to people who actually make a living working their dogs? (I've heard that suggested, BTW)

Interesting discussion.

ETA: I'd just like to reiterate- I'm definitely devil's advocate here. I come from the city, and agility, and train and trial a rescue dog. Plus I'm training 2 pups who are spayed and whose parents won't be bred again, so they don't have anything to prove or demonstrate as far as breeding is concerned. I really only need the 2 dogs I already have mostly trained for farm work- so the pups are purely for my enjoyment. And I'm insisting on keeping some dogs purely for 3sheep work at this stage, even if they aren't currently working on the farm- because I enjoy it and they are good at that sort of thing. My OH and I have had some interesting discussions on this (all round working dogs vs. pure trial dogs) recently, because he's had 40 thousand sheep to muster, drench/backline last week, and limited dogs that can do that work right now.

Edited December 5, 2006 by mjk05

[jesomil]

You bring up many debates that are very interesting. I would love to learn more about them and the reasoning behind them, but is that classed as too off topic?

There are some city based triallers out there and many from where i come from that do really well and are brilliant handlers and win repeatedly over farm dogs doing regular real work.

By saying this, i am not necessarily talking about dogs kept in backyards, i also mean the dogs on properties that have no real work. There are lots of great handlers/dogs that live on the land but dont have any real work. They are not much different to the city people.

It would make it a small yard trialling scene if only the real workers were involved. It is just a sport like lots of others. I guess there are pros and cons to many sports involving animals.

I am very interested to see what others say about your points. They are very interesting and good food for thought.

[mjk05]

By saying this, i am not necessarily talking about dogs kept in backyards

Yeah, I know. But some very successful triallers in my region actually do live in the middle of the city, keep their dogs in small backyards and train once a week. Quite a few others have hobby farms, not more than a couple of hundred sheep, and way more dogs than they actually need. Most of the dogs are kept/trained specifically for trials.

It is just a sport like lots of others. I guess there are pros and cons to many sports involving animals.

Exactly. Makes it difficult to draw the line on which people with what sort of dogs should be allowed to "play", I think. And that's the topic, so not too off-topic

I am very interested to see what others say about your points.

Me too.

[Coolibah Coolies]

We have had similar threads on this before and I agree with all the posters and have seen what you are talking about. Stock work to me is using quietly confident controlled dogs.The idea used to be not to stress the stock at all? Now and I don my flame suit it seems to be about instructors making a buck

There is nothing nicer than watching a dog move and work stock with out biting ripping or harassing the animals. I can sit at a 3 sheep trial all day and more and just watch them work magic stuff indeed.

I cringe when i see photos of dogs biting the animals working so close and being potrayed as proven working dogs. I suppose each to there own but I was bought up to belive in steady control not rushing the animals off their feet. Not to mention the dust and chaos it causes in the real working situation.

In the old days sheep were worth money maybe its because today they are worth bugger all?

Ruth

[popcorn]

I think the problem is that breeds of dogs are being used that have not had ancestors herd sheep for hundreds of years. These breeds of dogs have been bred to do a different job in the modern day to what they may have been originally bred for.

There is also certainly a difference between a dog that will occassionally nip at a sheep to a dog that drags a sheep down and rips a sheep apart to the point that it needs veterinary treatment and this is something a few of us have witnessed. It is these dogs that need to be banned from participating in all herding and trialling activities and it is the herding clubs responsibility to ensure that this is so.

[TigerJack]

should city-based people, or anyone with no real need for a working dog, be doing sheepdog training at all?

After all, we have no reason to do it, other than for enjoyment for ourselves and our dogs. We might take it super-seriously, we might have very well-bred dogs, but we don't NEED those dogs to work sheep.

JMHO but yes, definitely I think there's a place for city based people and dogs to learn sheepwork for several reasons. I am such a person and I have now been learning with my Kelpie for just over a year. Quite apart from being a fun thing to do with my dog, it is a hell of a relationship builder. The response I have now from her is almost entirely down to the work done at herding and it follows through into all her other training and activities. Her Flyball focus improved exponentially as she learn't focus through working sheep.

I am not at all interested in titles and ANKC tests but I would like to think that someday I could trial her successfully at yard dog trials.

I have to say that the more herding work we do, the less likely I am to want to go and just play around on sheep somewhere like Erskine Park. That IMHO just asks for behaviour like the OP appears worried about, damage and harm to the sheep with innappropriate dogs for the work. Originally I thought, yeah, just do a few lessons and then go and do it on our own at Erskine Park. The more I learn, the more I realise how much I still have to learn and I now wouldn't dream of trying it without the supervision of my instructor. I want to do this properly and now I'm prepared to do the work slowly but with expert instruction with the ultimate aim of yard dog trials.

Jo and Kobe

[redapple]

I have seen and heard a fair bit about this new herding craze in the last 12 months or so and after what I have seen and heard, a few questions have come to mind and a few concerns have also entered my mind. I would just like some experienced herding triallers to to clarify a few things so I can rest easy.

I have not participated myself in this activity and at this stage will just stick with 3 sheep trialling and yard work until a few things are sorted regarding the herding.

One of my major concerns is the amount of "grippy" dogs there are that are allowed amongst the innocent prey animals with relatively little control over the K9 component of the team. I have seen some rather agressive tendancies from some dogs and have heard of some rather nasty injuries sustained by sheep by particular dogs on numerous occassions. I am wondering at what point does the Regulatory body decide that a dog has not got the desired traits to be a herding dog and if there is any kind of reprimands to owners of such unsuitable dogs. Like are owners asked not to bring the dog back for 6 months or something like they do if a dog bites at any other obedience/agility trial scenario. If trainers are running clinics to encourage herding people are they also obliged to inform the Reg body of any unacceptable behaviour like submitting incident reports or something similar so that any incident is documented so that if there is a trend for say an individual dog has repeatedly done wrong, the owner can be asked not to bring that dog back until it is better trained or until it passes an assessment of suitability or something. At what point does someone take responsibilty for the types of dogs and their actions.

Another major concern I have is the welfare of the sheep. I know that Yard Dog triallers and 3 sheep triallers have battled constantly with animal welfare organisations and are constantly under their watchful eye. These sheep sports have had to have the sheeps welfare at the absolute top of the list on any given day. Dogs that bite are removed, dogs that run the sheep too much are generally either asked to retire, on a hot day a trial may be cancelled as the sheep will be too hot to be moved around a course with highly trained experienced dogs.

I worry that if any of the animal welfare see or hear of any of the things I have seen so far in such a short amount of time that herding has been around, that any sport that uses sheep with be entirely banned. If all sheep trialling is banned due to the short term gain for a few titles or "just to let the dog have a bit of fun" it will be a terrible day. People will gather at canine grounds one day and reminise(sp) of the days there used to be sheep dog trials.

So if anyone can please provide any information to settle my mind, I would be forever grateful. I am not looking to get flamed or anything, just some sensible answers.

Hi Dasha,

you mention herding being a 'new craze'. While not as established as some of the other sheepdog trials in Australia, it has been going for over 4 years, I wouldn't have thought that such a thing was a 'new craze'?

Your concerns seem to largely be with dogs biting, and rightly so. The herding rules clearly state that dogs which do grip abusively without purpose shall be immediately excused. Where acceptable gripping is allowed (probably similarly to 3 sheep trialling) it must not break the skin.

A dog which is excused twice for unacceptable gripping will no longer be elligible for entry into ankc events. After 6 months that dog can be re-evaluated 3 times by judges. Any excusals there will see it permanently ineligble for entry in ankc herding events.

The ankc has no control or authority over private trainers. Many of these trainers are probably not members of the ankc and would have no interest or inclination in reporting biting dogs to them. Should they also report biting registered working border collies, kelpies and so on? Should they report these dogs to their owners 'main' body such as the sheepdog workers association or the yard dog association?

I think that it's really unfortunate people can ignore an injured and stressed animal and just focus on the enjoyment their dog had chasing (herding?) sheep. Maybe as mjk05 says, if the herding instinct certificate is removed, we'll start seeing more controlled behaviour from the dogs and less stress and mayhem.

Jesomil, I think it was mjk05 again who said that some show bred dogs can herd. No they haven't been selectively bred for that behaviour, but the genetic component is still there, creating a dog that has sheep working ability. I don't think that such a dog will ever be equivalent to a working dog selectively bred for such a thing, but it's fantastic when there's instinct to be found. This is what the ankc herding program is designed to do. Not to allow every ankc group 5 dog the ability to get its herding title. But to demonstrate which ones retained instinct and help preserve that within breeding programs.

Jesomil, you said that you I dont believe a title after a name means a great deal. Have you looked at the ankc herding rules and the title requirements. You might find that they are more involved than many think. For the advanced level, in A and B courses, a dog must have a reasonable cast (B course up to 180 metres), lift, fetch, balance, drive, pen and hold. Surely enough to demonstrate that the dog has some level or instinct?

I agree that novice handlers can frustrate and create situations where almost any dog will bite stock. Working stock with a dog is involved and takes months/years of concerted effort for many people to work out what's going on. I think that more education of handlers new to the sport which would include stock awareness and some basic husbandry wouldn't go astray.

Unfortunately people only remember and discuss the negative incidents. It would be great to see some recognition of the positive things coming out of the ankc herding program. Positives such as an increased awareness and appreciation of the Australian working dogs and their handlers, more understanding of sheep husbandry, dogs with more control and better relationship with handler due to working stock, and finally ankc show dogs which actually can work stock producing better offspring with increased herding instinct due to the program.

I understand how alarming dogs biting and damaging stock is and hope that no one of any sheepdog/herding persuasion thinks that such behaviour is acceptable. It certainly isn't under the ankc rules.

[jesomil]

Thanks for your informative post Redapple.

Its good to see there are rules in place about biting dogs. As i said before i have no knowledge or experience with ANKC herding at all, so i am just going of what i have been told.

Jesomil, I think it was mjk05 again who said that some show bred dogs can herd. No they haven't been selectively bred for that behaviour, but the genetic component is still there, creating a dog that has sheep working ability. I don't think that such a dog will ever be equivalent to a working dog selectively bred for such a thing, but it's fantastic when there's instinct to be found. This is what the ankc herding program is designed to do. Not to allow every ankc group 5 dog the ability to get its herding title. But to demonstrate which ones retained instinct and help preserve that within breeding programs.

Would people really try to preserve some form of instinct in their lines? Wouldnt they breed firstly for looks/temperament? What is the point of preserving it in the breeding programs? If they wanted working abililty and started breeding for it, it would become like the working lines except the working lines are already a long way ahead.

If someone wanted a working dog, they wouldnt go for a show bred dog that happened to have a good instinct, they would go straight for a working line that would guarantee them a worker.

Do working bred dogs compete in the herding?

Jesomil, you said that you I dont believe a title after a name means a great deal. Have you looked at the ankc herding rules and the title requirements. You might find that they are more involved than many think. For the advanced level, in A and B courses, a dog must have a reasonable cast (B course up to 180 metres), lift, fetch, balance, drive, pen and hold. Surely enough to demonstrate that the dog has some level or instinct?

I would be very interested to look at the ANKC title requirements. Are they on the net?

I only base my comments on what i have heard. I have heard that the dogs dont need to do much at all for the initial title.

Is the Advanced level A and B the highest level?

Sorry for all my questions but it would be good to have some more facts out there. It is interesting.

[WaikikamukauAussies]

I got into herding over 2 years ago with my Australian Shepherds, as I wanted to see what my dog could do besides showing.

I will admit at first he was full on, but I was trained by a person who has represented Australia in sheep dog trails & who has been overseas & done clinics, & not once have I ever had any of mine grab hold of sheep.

Aussies don't have alot of'eye' but will go in close & shoulder the livestock, mine know I won't put up with any nonsense from them & I ahve never had to muzzle them, I also live on acerage.

I practice every week in different courses, we are lucky in Tassie ( Sth) that we have a property avaliable that has all types of courses/levels set up all the time & a range of different types of sheep, we have never had a problem with any dogs getting into the sheep, the owner must show first that the dog is under control, & to start with the dog is on leash.

In the trails here the dogs is given a 'watch the sheep' warning one time, the second time your are asked to leave the trial area, I can say I have naver had this happen to me.

yes I show my dogs & with great success, but I take offence that 'show' dogs can't herd, I have been told by many 'real' sheep traillers that my boy shows natural ability ( & yes his father from the USA also had ability) & I have been to clinics to learn more, & I am proud to say my first puppy from him is showing more ability than his father at nearly 8mths, at 7mths I first tried him on sheep, & in a few mins he was moving the sheep & showing alot of natural ablilty, I hope to continue trialing as I love it.

Australian Shepherds are still used in most parts of America has farm dogs & are just as good on cattle/duck as they are on sheep, they ahve even been know to herd Bison.

I think the bigger problem is handler, before starting I think handlers should learn to read the sheep, the best way to do that is go into a large pen area & try to move the sheep yourself, its not as easy as you think, & learn as much as you can in reading & going to watch trials & learn learn learn!!!!

Andrea Bosco, Scandal, Fern, Millie, Thowra

[redapple]

Thanks for your informative post Redapple.

Would people really try to preserve some form of instinct in their lines? Wouldnt they breed firstly for looks/temperament? What is the point of preserving it in the breeding programs? If they wanted working abililty and started breeding for it, it would become like the working lines except the working lines are already a long way ahead.

If someone wanted a working dog, they wouldnt go for a show bred dog that happened to have a good instinct, they would go straight for a working line that would guarantee them a worker.

Do working bred dogs compete in the herding?

....

I would be very interested to look at the ANKC title requirements. Are they on the net?

I only base my comments on what i have heard. I have heard that the dogs dont need to do much at all for the initial title.

Is the Advanced level A and B the highest level?

Sorry for all my questions but it would be good to have some more facts out there. It is interesting.

Hi Jesomil,

pleased to help. You can find the ankc herding rules here: http://www.badsa.org.au/herding.html

There is also an Advanced C level course which really has no parallels with Australian style sheepwork. This is boundary herding, where the dog is a 'living fence' keeping grazing (therefore calm, not stressed) sheep within a certain area. The dog also moves the stock along a road over a bridge and into and out of a pen.

Why would people preserve instinct in their lines? The fact is that those instincts are part of their breed, why it was developed and no doubt, an integral part of their breeds temperament and nature. Breeding a European herding breed to increase its working behaviour wouldn't turn it into a border collie or kelpie. These dogs are bred to do a different job under different conditions. If people wanted to do 3 sheep trialling they'd be mad to get a show bred belgian shepherd, aussie shepherd or even an ACD; they'd get a dog bred to do specifically 3 sheep work. As has been mentioned before, a dog bred specifically to do 3 sheep trials is often not the dog you actually want to work with on commercial sheep station. Through ankc trialling, I suppose that the aim is to get a dog that can perform and succeed within those particular rules.

I'm pretty sure that no-one in the ankc herding world is trying to say that their dogs are equivalent to Australian multi-generation purpose bred breeds and that people should consider buying one of theirs to work on a sheepstation.

And yes to your final question a number of working bred dogs (by that I mean nsw sheepdog workers inc. registered border collies and wkc kelpies) do compete in ankc herding events.

Edited December 6, 2006 by redapple

[Tassie]

Many well-made points here. IMHO the welfare of the stock is absolutely paramount - no ifs, buts, or maybes. Yes, a young and crazy dog may chase, and grip a bit, until it learns the error of its ways. Instructors need to be well experienced, and dogs need to be started on well-dogged sheep that are less likely to stimulate the dogs' craziness. If would-be handlers cannot appreciate that any sort of stock abuse is unacceptable, and be willing to deal with it, then they should be advised to try some other avenue for their dogs. Stock are not dog toys.

I started with my show-bred Border Collie bitch in ANKC herding, then was lucky enough to have lessons with an experienced dog handler, who had well-schooled training sheep. I was already reasonably stock savvy, but worked hard on learning what made sheep tick, and how I could help my dog to get them relatively steadily where I wanted them. With the opportunities for real-work (and pretend real-work) learning that I had, my dog and I ended up being reasonably useful farm hands, able to help my trainer out with jobs on her sheep farm. Doing that, and watching real working Border Collies work, made me realize that while she was reasonable as a farm dog doing chores, my girl was unlikely to make a 3 sheep trial dog, so we gave up the idea of ANKC herding too, and now enjoy having fun and chasing titles in agility.

I really enjoyed the opportunity of learning to work stock with my girl - nothing quite like walking with your dog driving a mob of sheep several hundred metres and then yarding them - or having brought them to an area of their paddock we wanted eating out, settling down and shepherding them to make sure they stayed in that area. That's what it's all about for me.

I already had some reservations about ANKC 'herding' - having read what's reported in some of these posts, I don't feel much more comfortable about it. Having said that, I was very interested to read Andrea's post - and couldn't agree more with what she says about handlers needing to be prepared to learn as much as they can about stock.