Training Help - Dog With No Interest In Anything

[MolassesLass]

Brother and SIL's dog a BC rescued from Logan pound at what we think was 18 months old. Before then he had been in the pound 3 times.

Rusty as he was named, lives in his own head. He rarely looks at his owners, plays deaf way too often and paces for hours on end at times (round and round the yard). He chases birds across the sky, tries to catch rain drops and flies and is a little over-stimulated in the car. He doesn't value food, won't play with toys, doesn't value pats or praise and seems to ignore aversives (he hasn't been struck or anything - talking about being locked away or being ignored or loud noises etc). Basically, he's a little insane. But I'm hoping with time and training he could be normal.

I know people are going to suggest NILIF and TOT, but both seem to require the dog caring about the owner (or at least something) somewhat first. Rusty is quite happy to be left outside to his pacing if he doesn't obey a command to "come". How do you make a dog care?!

Secondly and I think this one is beginning to get worse, he's fear aggressive with dogs behind fences. If he hears a dog barking at him through a fence or on his daily walk when he's getting close to the places he knows have barking dogs, he gets really worked up. You know the scenario, rabid worked up barking and frothing, scrabbling and hackles up. Again, he pays no attention and doesn't seem to care if the walk is ended by heading back the way we came, in fact, I think he may feel he won. He's good meeting dogs, never aggressive at all, although he sometimes rushes in a little too fast. He has got some dominance in him as he likes to hump other dogs.

I have a few ideas of what could have caused these issues but not so much on things to fix them.

Edited December 4, 2006 by molasseslass

[WorkingHard]

There is a method by Jan Fennel. Not sure what it is called really but it uses similar ideas to that of Monty Roberts the horse wisperer.

She works with a lot of rescue dogs with great results. I'm not a fan of ALL her methods but most of it seems to work wonders and by the sound of this little guy I think they could help a lot.

She came to Aus to do a seminar not long a go so some other DOLers might be able to fill you in more on her methods.

OHH and he is a gorgess dog I hope that all works out well

[jaybeece]

I know people are going to suggest NILIF and TOT, but both seem to require the dog caring about the owner (or at least something) somewhat first. Rusty is quite happy to be left outside to his pacing if he doesn't obey a command to "come". How do you make a dog care?!

The point to both of these techniques kind of is to make the dog care. They're not a total fix, but I can see them both helping. At some point he's going to want something, whether it's food (have they tried skipping a meal?) or to go somewhere and that's where both of these will work great. If the dog wants out of the house, they can start by having him sit before he goes anywhere, then build up the TOT to involve the outdoors (ie. he doesn't go anywhere until he looks at them). Sounds like he's going to be a heap of work, but not impossible given time. They just need to really pay attention to what motivates him (and there will be something, otherwise he'd be comatose) and working with it.

[sas]

I'd be working on Leadership, there is book #1 & 2 I'd reccomend from Jan Fennell.

TOT will help create food drive and NILIF will assist the dog with focus and offering correct behaviours (pack drive I guess you could say).

[Staff'n'Toller]

I'm not sure that TOT and NILIF will do much at all for an unresponsive dog, the pacing and neurotic 'catching' behaviours (whilst I know can show in alot of Borders) would be the worry, it would be worth having a Vet Behaviourist take a look at him. It's always good to have a fresh set of eyes look at the situation.

Mel.

[Tonymc]

as SAS said the Key will be found in Leadership. Tonymc

[Vickie]

He sounds a bit like my Noah, he (naturally) has a number of these elements. I have found over the years that habits are a really good thing for dogs like this. With enough repetition, without a choice, he no longer thinks about having a choice. Sure, I have taught him to play & take food but first I had to teach him to mind me. Nowadays (at 10) he is even affectionate occasionally.

I'm no behaviourist, but my first thought would be to tie him to your waist & go about your day...for a few days.

If this is a really bad suggestion, I'm sure someone will say so

[MolassesLass]

He is like we used to see in olden day zoos, that pacing, brain is elsewhere kind of thing. He is more here these days (they're had him around 7 months) but even then, his focus isn't on his owners. I'd say for the first 18 months he was a backyard dog, seeing people only when they dropped his dinner out to him. I feel his fear reactions to barking dogs behind fences is due to his pound trips (during the first visit to meet him, one of the pound staff repeatedly hit him across the face for barking back at the dog next to him).

He's not brainless, he's in class 2 at obedience but I feel he does what's asked then because he has no choice (he's on lead etc) not because he wants to please or he likes the activity. He has been seen for a private lesson that was quite expensive and it was felt to be a huge rip-off as all the trainer suggested was using a halti and waiting until he gives the correct response and praise. Unfortunately that would mean waiting forever, meanwhile Rusty gets very worked up and his mum very upset. So I'm going to have to be very careful about suggesting other options like that and I don't know of any professional behaviourists. Anyone else have one they can recommend?

If only I could explain to him how he's not going anywhere and it's time to love his humans!

The Jan Fennell books recommended, what are the titles (none say leadership or anything)?

ETA: Vickie, he has flashes of being interested. Yesterday out of a 3 hour visit (which involved a lot of time outs due to him fence attacking next doors idiot dog - which constantly does the same to me and my dogs) he once looked right at me and responded to my call of "come". Stopping just long enough to lick my face and bugger off after the other dogs again. I saw in him at the pound a great intensity to work IF he can be shown that pleasing his owners has benefits he wants.

I can see what you're thinking, forcing him to be a part of his owner's day, forces him to consider them and think about interacting with them. Hmmmm

Edited December 4, 2006 by molasseslass

[Steve K9Pro]

M: I know people are going to suggest NILIF and TOT, but both seem to require the dog caring about the owner (or at least something) somewhat first. Rusty is quite happy to be left outside to his pacing if he doesn't obey a command to "come". How do you make a dog care?!

K9: the dog needs to eat & thats how the TOT works, by the dog offering the Alpha position to the owner...

S&T: I'm not sure that TOT and NILIF will do much at all for an unresponsive dog

K9: maybe this thread will explain it.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=13260

Though I will say that he sounds like a dog that would benefit from some training in drive.. He has bee in & out of pounds so he will take some time to feel like this home isnt temporary.

[Emily Howard]

Wow he sounds alot like my dobe was when I got her, also a rescue. What is he like indoors? Will he pay his owners any attention. Definitely start with tot.

With my dobe it was a drive thing, high prey drive even though to me it looked like she was chasing nothing she was trying to satisfy her drive. She completely ignored me, drove me nuts.

If he is more attentive indoors I'd start training there with huge praise for paying attention. See if he'll get involved with a game of tug.

ETA K9 you beat me to it......After approx 1 year of K9 force magic. She is doing very well. Very attentive and affectinate. Still full of drive in a good way though.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Emily Howard

[Rusky]

poor traumatised wee soul, ruddy people who bully and punish a poor dog just because he was talking to the dog next door

Please get Jan Fennels book and ask your family to follow it. I also agree that a pair of fresh eyes may help but after they follow the book. They need to start today.

There isn't anything new or anything we all didn't already know but it is the way it is put together and the wonderful explanations that will help them and their lovely dog. Step by step instructions for them to have a lovely caring, calm ,loyal dog.

[MolassesLass]

He has bee in & out of pounds so he will take some time to feel like this home isnt temporary.

Do people feel that with a rescue dog like this (multiple homes and pound stays) that the owners should try to not go away at all for 6/12 months? Would having occasional 1/2 week stays with someone else be preventing him settling in properly?

Wow he sounds alot like my dobe was when I got her, also a rescue.

I rescued a BC that was similar a few years ago. This year she gained frisbee and agility titles, so we know there's hope.

What is he like indoors? Will he pay his owners any attention.

As I said earlier, he's not really an indoors dog. He's allowed in sometimes at night, he mostly made to sit on a mat and just be in the house rather than having free run. He will do that, with a few creeps off to check stuff out.

With my dobe it was a drive thing, high prey drive even though to me it looked like she was chasing nothing she was trying to satisfy her drive.

I thought he had a high prey drive but at an attempt at lure coursing, the other dogs and the activity made his overly anxious and he didn't focus on the lure at all (in fact, both run attempts he ended up eliminating - indicating anxiety I think).

people who bully and punish a poor dog just because he was talking to the dog next door

It was fence attacking in the pound, not a good behaviour but belting him across the face wasn't going to help.

Again, what title is the Fennell book you think will help, she seems to have quite a few?

Fennell Book List

[WorkingHard]

Again, what title is the Fennell book you think will help, she seems to have quite a few?

Try your libaray. I read "The dog listener" It seemed to lightly cover every thing including how she got into doing what she does and why. I didn't relise that she had so many I'm sure that the methods is the same no matter what book you read. Prehaps you could google "Amichien Bonding" As this is what she calls her method.

Excuse my naivety but what is NILIF. Is it similar to TOT?? Can some one post a link.

[MolassesLass]

NILIF = Nothing in life is free

[Emily Howard]

So the lure coursing was under too much distraction.

Well what worked for me (without freely giving out K9's methods) was.

Start with TOT, it might seen really simple but it works very well. Do it exactly as it is written. It's a brilliant focus building excersise.

And start some prey drive training in a low distration enviroment. This could be inside or in a garage or back yard on lead.

Just as an example my dobe had zero interest 95% of the time in the prey item, but she was full of drive. When I'd open my backdoor she'd zoom out and start doing loops around the yard not really even looking where she was going, head in the air....crazy.....and deaf . Now when I open the back door she runs down the stairs turns around and looks at me and waits. She knows her best chance of drive satisfation is me.

[Rusky]

Again, what title is the Fennell book you think will help, she seems to have quite a few?

The practical dog listener. PM on the way too.