Halti

[MonElite]

countless times we have had a debate on the prong and it seems that anti prong people are oten a pro halti.

We recently had someone ask about what is the correct way to use a prong. Its only fair I think we will hear from the halti users about their tool.

So can someone pls explain to the rest of us what is the correct way to use the halti/gentle leader?

[PAX]

This is what I was told by Susan Garrett and this is what I tell people that want to use them.

You have to invest a bit of time in getting your dog used to them as most dogs don't like them but just like when we first put our dogs on leads, they will get used to a halti if you put in a bit of effort. I have handouts I give people that want to try them but I'm not going to type all that out. I explain how they must not jerk on the dog with a halti or they can injure the dog and how they must watch for rub marks or anything that could cause discomfort to the dog...bla bla.

I am saying Halti as a generic name, the ones we sell at our club are 'black dog brand' I think.

If the dog pulls, hold the halti near where the lead connects and gently pull the dog back towards you. If the dog rubs on you or something else do the same thing. Reward the dog for being in position and not worrying about the halti. I like to C/T the use of a halti right from seeing the halti, putting it on through to walking in it. If you do this the dog will be excited to see the halti and have no bad association with it.

I would like to say that I am not a fan of Haltis but some people find them good for general walking of their dog. I believe they are a management tool only and do not replace good training, so please no halti or member bashing.

I only posted because it's Myszkas thread.

[MonElite]

PAX any chance of sending me the handout that you give at your club?

There are several people at my club that use them and wont swap for anything else, I could at least give them something to help them out.

I wanted to "kill" one guy with the golden that repeatedly arrived with his dog on the halti and an extandeable lead

[PAX]

I say ban all retractable leads.

[leopuppy04]

I would be more than happy to enlighten you!!!

I'll try and sum it up quickly and add if I need to! Basically the main thing to do with a halter is:

1. Get your dog used to it before throwing it on and taking your dog for a walk to the park. This is a very common mistake as many people just chuck it on without 'desensitising' your dog to the feel of the halter. This means, sitting it on your dogs nose and treating them when it sits there. This reduces the 'aversive' that many people refer to when talking about halti's. If you condition the feeling of the halter to good things (food, chasing toys etc) then, I am pretty sure your dog won't mind wearing it! LOL! Mine hardly wears his anymore, so when it first goes on he likes to rub, but not really for that long.

2. Make sure the 'neck' strap a) sits high above the head, and b) is tight. This is the most difficult part to get people do. People will either fit the back strap to low (makes an L shape - more dangerous, not to mention ineffective!) rather than high on the head, just below the ears. The other mistake is people fit it like a normal collar - loose! Most need to be so tight you can only JUST fit one finger through. The gentle leader tends to need to be a little tighter than others. If this isn't tight enough (or sits down too low) it causes discomfort to the dog, not to mention causing the halter to move whenever the dog turns its head.

3. DONT give your dog the full extent of the lead (particularly if they pull)... this is how dogs can get neck injuries from halters. They surge to the end and wham! the dogs neck sharply spins around causing a 'whiplash' effect. OUCH! I hold my dogs lead close to the buckle for ages until the dog starts to learn not to pull or whatever, then I gradually give a little more lead, but never the full length (or even half, depending on the length of the lead). This is why I also would recommend something like the infin8 (blackdog) halter for an incessent puller who has no other issues.... this way you get a similar effect to the halter BUT the dog can't snap its neck around.... downside... you can't control the head to break focus etc (very important for aggression).

4. Make any movements with the halter smooth. When you turn the dog around, make it smooth and not jerky. Again, this would be another reason dogs get injuries... many trainers/ handlers/ pet owners are used to a jerk-and-pull and thus will rarely make their movements smooth.

5. Don't think that your halter is a one fix solution... there still is training involved! Many people put it on and think that is all they have to do and the dog will 'magically' stop pulling.... it works for all of 5 mins! The dog will stop pulling for that long coz it takes them a while to get used to it etc. They can still pull on a halter!

Just a couple more points.... I don't particularly like the GL simply because there is no change in tension from the halter.... there is always constant pressure on... I personally prefer the halti/blackdog versions as these tighten over the muzzle when pressure is put on the lead... thats my opinion though. Remember that when your dog was a pup you had to get it used to a collar and lead. At those times the pup may not have liked its collar either.... that was a constant pressure on the neck, the dog soon forgot about... the same goes with the halter if you follow the right steps. Think about it - when you put a seatbelt or buckle on tight.... you can feel it for a certian period of time, then you become 'desensitsed' to it... you still know it is there, you can still feel it, but you don't think about it.

I hope this helps... i'll be more than happy to elaborate!

[huski]

I have used a halti on my husky when he was young. He didn't like it, but he was so strong that it was the best way for me to control him at the time. He was also going through the adolescent period and was very silly. When the halti broke (after he had gotten his paws on it and chewed it till it broke) we didn't bother replacing it. I now use a shock absorbant lead (from Big Dog leash co) and have trained him to walk beside me without pulling and did so without training tools Although I think it helped that he was older and more sensible. I think like any training tool if it is used properly it can be beneficial. I know many many people who use them and love them.

[Rusky]

Also Myska, if you have play time at your club make sure the handlers have a flat collar for socialising.

Ban all retactable leads from your club, make sure you have a few (nice leads) for purchase and or loan and explain why.

Feel the halti, make sure it is a soft material, someone came to our club with a really harsh cheap nylon one, I rubbed it up and down their arms a few times to show how cheap and nasty it was. I do that with leads too.

I often combine an old style halti with a rope choker. I attach the halti D ring to the rope ring and clip the lead through both so that if the halti does give way on a walk because it wasn't clipped correctly or has been abused or chewed there is a safety net. I was really happy when black dog made a similar combination but not everyone will pay that price and it has worked for me for years as a suitable alternative to a black dog.

Leopuppy great explanation.

oooo more editing

I don't like gentle leaders I really do worry about head pulls with a gentle leader, I personally feel there is not enough support.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Rusky

[MonElite]

So far out of all my students there was one man with a mally that refused for me to put a martingale on his dog insead of the halti.

if you have play time at your club make sure the handlers have a flat collar for socialising.

no we dont, and I will not be encouraging to implement one en masse.

[Rusky]

So far out of all my students there was one man with a mally that refused for me to put a martingale on his dog insead of the halti.

if you have play time at your club make sure the handlers have a flat collar for socialising.

no we dont, and I will not be encouraging to implement one en masse.

It is very important for handlers to learn and understand body language, if 2 dogs are comfortable with each other and play bow I don't see why you wouldn't introduce one on one socialising. People often make friends at dog club and go for social walks together, this is a way you can expain and demonstrate social etiqette for canines. We also have elbow passes of dogs and handlers, I mean handlers elbows/shoulders pass so the dog has 2 people between him and the other dog, again for comfortable dogs and handlers. Reactive dogs don't get in cooee of another dog.

Puppies will be puppies and on a halti will play bow, it is perfectly natural and to be encouraged

In any case haltis are not fitted till class starts.

[kamuzz]

I say ban all retractable leads.

I know, but why?

[MonElite]

Rusky - one on one is different to release the group of hounds after the class.

This is what I though you meant.

I hae myself made several friends at the dog clubs and we let our dogs socialise.

I also have a freind where our dogs dont get on and we walk them together on lead.

[Rusky]

I say ban all retractable leads.

I know, but why?

well here is one good reason

Dog lead to be banned after girl blinded

By 7News

A brand of dog lead is to be banned after a girl was blinded in one eye as she walked her pet.

Louise Hiatt, aged 10, from Caravonica, near Cairns, was walking her dachshund dog on a Woofaz retractable lead when its clasp snapped. The lead flew back and the metal hook on its end hit her in the left eye.

She lost her iris and lens, and despite being rushed to the Queensland Eye Centre in Brisbane for surgery after the accident in January, doctors were unable to save her sight. ADVERTISEMENT

Louise's parents contacted consumer association CHOICE, which carried out a series of independent tests on the leads, which are sold across Australia. Experts found the leads, which failed strength tests, were unsafe and dangerous.

Following calls from the watchdog, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) is to ban Woofaz dog leads.

"I'd hate this to happen to someone else," Louise's mother, Michelle Hiatt said. "It's not like a cut that will leave her with a scar on her leg - she has no sight in that eye."

CHOICE chief executive Peter Kell said: "It is pleasing to see the government responding quickly so that this harmful product will not be sold to consumers in the future."

Rusky - one on one is different to release the group of hounds after the class.

This is what I though you meant.

no no no

[PAX]

The reason I dislike retractable leads is I want my dogs to walk on a loose lead. If I use a retractable lead the dog is rewarded for pulling on the lead. When the dog pulls he/she gets more lead and more freedom, which is the opposite of what I am trying to train.

If I ever need my dog to have a long lead, I put him on a long lead not a retractable.

[leopuppy04]

The reason I dislike retractable leads is I want my dogs to walk on a loose lead. If I use a retractable lead the dog is rewarded for pulling on the lead. When the dog pulls he/she gets more lead and more freedom, which is the opposite of what I am trying to train.

If I ever need my dog to have a long lead, I put him on a long lead not a retractable.

I agree. But then you have people who have their dogs on a retractable at a confined space like a vet clinic and let their dog wonder everywhere and pee on everything

[Staranais]

I wanted to "kill" one guy with the golden that repeatedly arrived with his dog on the halti and an extandeable lead

I once heard a story about a greyhound that broke its neck wearing a headcollar, while on a long extending leash. It apparently took off after something and hit the end of the leash at full speed - snap!

Headcollars and extending leashes (or long lines) are training tools that definately don't mix well, IMO. Just too risky for the dog.

Edited December 4, 2006 by Amhailte

[Erny]

Headcollars and extending leashes (or long lines) are training tools that definately don't mix well, IMO. Just too risky for the dog.

Hi Am

Just my small, albeit picky 'correction' by way of input - I don't class "extender" leads as a training tool at all (in fact its principals go against those of our training wishes IE DON'T pull on the lead). And although some training may occur under the influence of a head collar, I view these more as a management tool than a training tool ............ a tool that, with correct use can lead to the dog not requiring it and making it's own decisions to perform to our and society's requirements.

[Staranais]

Hi Am

Just my small, albeit picky 'correction' by way of input - I don't class "extender" leads as a training tool at all (in fact its principals go against those of our training wishes IE DON'T pull on the lead). And although some training may occur under the influence of a head collar, I view these more as a management tool than a training tool ............ a tool that, with correct use can lead to the dog not requiring it and making it's own decisions to perform to our and society's requirements.

Hi Erny!

I have an extender leash, which I used with my dog while jogging. He was taught that pulling was OK on the extender leash, and was not OK on any other type of leash. So for the period of me teaching him that, wasn't the extender leash a training tool?

And with a headcollar, are you saying that it's a management tool not a training tool because the eventual aim of the trainer is to wean the dog off it? In that case, isn't that the same for pinch collars and check chains, since most people do want to wean off these eventually too? Or are you calling it a management tool simply because most people do use them as management tools (just like many people use check chains as management tools for the entire life of their dog), even though you can train with them if you want to?

Or am I competely misunderstanding your point?

(can't believe I'm arguing in favour of extending leashes and headcollars! )

[Erny]

I have an extender leash, which I used with my dog while jogging. He was taught that pulling was OK on the extender leash, and was not OK on any other type of leash. So for the period of me teaching him that, wasn't the extender leash a training tool?

Firstly, I need to clarify the above. Does your dog KNOW automatically WHICH lead he is attached to the instant it is attached, or does this "knowing" occur because of the manner in which each lead is handled by you once it is clipped on?

But, even taking what you've said and asked here on face value, IMO, my answer would still be "no". Taking into account that we're discussing "lead etiquette" only here, your dog would be trained to the standard lead, whereas no training occurs when the extender lead is on.

And with a headcollar, are you saying that it's a management tool not a training tool because the eventual aim of the trainer is to wean the dog off it? In that case, isn't that the same for pinch collars and check chains, since most people do want to wean off these eventually too? Or are you calling it a management tool simply because most people do use them as management tools (just like many people use check chains as management tools for the entire life of their dog), even though you can train with them if you want to?

I had a feeling that what I said (remembering it is my view only) would need some clarification .

My general view is that training more clearly and quickly occurs when the dog has the opportunity to behave differently to what we wish but that our influence in each instance over the dog removes that opportunity. The headcollar places much control in the hands of the owner. The more control, the less opportunity for the dog. Hence, I refer to this tool as one of 'management'.

When weaned off (or when a dog is worked in) a different collar style, more opportunity presents itself (ie there is less 'steering' control available to the handler) but with the correct use/technique, the message for the desired behaviour still remains. The dog's choice for behaviour is greater and therefore (IMO) the dog learns (ie "trains") with a much larger definition.

My own experience has taught me that (in general) when a dog has been "trained" on a head collar, it has still been necessary to train (almost from the beginning) to a different style of collar. Whereas, when I've worked a dog on a (eg) chain/prong, there can be a more immediate carry-over effect to another type of collar (eg. martingale; flat).

Edited December 5, 2006 by Erny

[Staranais]

Firstly, I need to clarify the above. Does your dog KNOW automatically WHICH lead he is attached to the instant it is attached, or does this "knowing" occur because of the manner in which each lead is handled by you once it is clipped on?

But, even taking what you've said and asked here on face value, IMO, my answer would still be "no". Taking into account that we're discussing "lead etiquette" only here, your dog would be trained to the standard lead, whereas no training occurs when the extender lead is on.

For the first question, I'm not sure. I think he knows the difference between the leashes by the way they look or maybe the way they smell, just like he recognises most of the other equipment I own for him on sight - but I can't claim to know exactly what's going on in his head, and it's possible that he could be reacting to the way I handle the leashes.

For the second, he actually had very good loose leash manners which I'd previously trained, and then I had to reteach him that it was OK to pull on the extender leash (we tried using a long line, but it kept tangling round my feet, hence getting the extender).

My general view is that training more clearly and quickly occurs when the dog has the opportunity to behave differently to what we wish but that our influence in each instance over the dog removes that opportunity. The headcollar places much control in the hands of the owner. The more control, the less opportunity for the dog. Hence, I refer to this tool as one of 'management'...

So (please correct me if I'm wrong), you think that a headcollar is a management tool since training is basically a process of allowing the dog to make choices and providing consequences for those choices, and because the headcollar doesn't allow the dog the chance to be wrong, it therefore prevents much true training from taking place? Is that right?

That's interesting, particularly because it's very similar to an argument I've heard a few times from clicker trainers - they believe that physically guiding a dog into position doesn't teach the dog anything, whereas keeping your hands off the dog and requiring him to think for himself how to earn the reward results in much more learning occuring.

Sorry Myszka, we've hijacked your thread.

[Rom]

Hi Guys,

In light of all of the above, do you think that the halti is appropriate in this situation: Competition obedience dog that has excellent loose leash skills, but is dog aggressive so handler uses halti for control where its difficult to control the proximity of other dogs ie, line up for vetting prior to competition?

I understand why the owner is using the halti in this situation, but is it the best option? Having the halti on doesn't stop the dog from aggressing, just gives the handler more control if it does...I wonder if the dog actually feels more stressed because it has less control?