Newbies To The Training Forum Take Note:

[Alpha]

There will be mention on this forum of controversial training tools such as prong collars and e-collars. Many of us come to here to learn from people who’s dog training knowledge comes from not only years in the fields of animal behaviour, but also police, search and rescue and military backgrounds. These people train dogs to have fast and enthusiastic compliance under such heavy distractions as bombs, bullets and attack by hostile forces.

In their training methods they recognise two things. The first is that the dogs drive and enthusiasm for the work has to be maintained for the protection of human life. The second is that any form of cruelty, or inappropriate use of correction or training tools, kill the dogs drive and enthusiasm for its work and hence its reliability in compliance to given commands; this puts human life at risk.

The knowledge and understanding of these two criteria have led the professionals on this forum to develop sensitivities in the use of the above training tools that will be hard for the uneducated and uninitiated to understand.

Whilst this forum will promote and protect your freedom to disagree with the use of the above training tools in your own given circumstances, at no time will it tolerate hostile comments, accusations of cruelty or challenges to training knowledge. Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals, nor those of us who have sought their professional opinion and guidance, in such a manner.

The professionals that visit this forum give us their time and their guidance for free. I personally would like them to keep coming back without having to continue suffering attack and derogatory comments from uneducated amateurs.

Rom, whilst I agree with your sentiment in theory. However,what category do I fall into when I can be labelled under the three criteria I underlined in your post and them some? I advocate the use of PCs , have been trained in their use and have used them myself and have done so for over a decade. You comments about those who choose the disicpline of obedience, offended me greatly( and others, I am sure) and detracts greatly from what other wise may have been a noble topic.

[Zia's Nuthouse]

Rom whilst your posting is very valid and very true, it did come across as a tad dictatorial. The title being "Newbies take note". That sounds like an order to me, rather than a suggestion as it could have been. And let us all agree, that it's not always newbies that will challenge the professionals.

[cavNrott]

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Edited May 29, 2009 by cavNrott

[zacpud]

I wonder if someone could please explain to me what a prong collar is????? I never heard of them. This is a very interesting topic. I use the martingale collar when training my border collie.

[Rusky]

here is a link to show you all collars available and a bit about their use.

There are independant articles regarding each collar which is not a standard flat collar by doing a google.

training collars

[zacpud]

Thanks for that Rusky. I'll check it out.

[Guest Steph & Bam]

Bump because I think it needs to be seen again. Great post.

[Ms James]

'Ello! Noob here!

I totally 100% agree with the OP sentiments, but I do feel that it was a tad confrontational in the wording. Although I guess sometimes it's necessary to be a bit more forceful in one's wording to actually get the point across.

At our training centre we're encouraged to use different collars for different disciplines, so if we're doing basic obedience for that day we can use whichever correction method/collar we find is best on our dog. They don't dictate what that collar should be, so you can use a check, prong, martingale or flat collar as you choose, which is great & acknowledges that each dog responds to a different collar as an individual. For agility - and we're only still doing basic intro to agility atm - they encourage us to use a flat collar so that the doggy doesn't get a correction while s/he is in the early learning phases of agility. I love that they've got an open mind about such things and allow you to make the best choice for your dog.

I actually first came to these forums ages ago because it was always one of the first few hits when I was doing Google searches on Prong collars & deciding whether or not I should invest in one. It offered up lively debate and, although some people can get hot under the collar (pardon the pun ), it's always been a source of invaluable information. I have the utmost respect for the professionals that frequent this board, & I'm so glad that they can offer up their expertise to dunderheads like me

Now, I really wanted to hug my dog while I was typing this...but she felt it was far more interesting to go sniff the cat instead. Hrmph!

[skip]

Hi everyone! I'm a newbie so of course I had to read this post. Thanks Rusty for that site listing. I thought I knew what collars were what but I learnt some aspects I hadn't really thought about.

I have 2 smaller dogs ( 4 + 10 kg ) that wear a collar + dogtag. These are nylon flat ( actually puppy collars ) and I use buckles to do obedience training etc.

I like them to have tags in case they are ever loose but their collars do leave marks. They have short soft fine coats so this article said Leather Rolled Collars leave less mark. So if I was to get my saddler to make little collars like this they would be better?

And I was thinking recently about a slip collar for the larger as there were some occasions where he has slipped his collar. In fact he can get out easy if he gets a fright. He doesn't leave me, they usually stick like clue, its usually to avoid an aggressive dog. But I wouldn't want to have him out of my control.

I use a harness on the small one as she's like a fairy jumping bean, only use a collar if she is working. ( obedience class and she is still pretty much a fairy).

Hope to learn lots from all the experience on this site. So I'll maybe ask too many questions. These two are my first dogs that are my own.

[ILFC]

Some good points were shared. However; it is a forum where people can share opinions. Also, it is the internet- people post under user names. This is a genuine question= How do you know people are who they say they are? Like, if they say they are a trainer- how do you know they are and how do you know they are a good one?

Bad title though.

[Henrietta]

I don't think Rom was trying to say that people aren't allowed an opinion.

I think what he is saying is that people shouldn't jump to conclusion and be so ready to judge about a certain method or training style. I would say that it is hurtful to be called cruel by people who are just not interested in approaching a topic with an open mind.

I think approaching all topics with an open mind is a great idea. Doesn't mean you have to agree at all, just means that you aren't completely blinded by your beliefs and resort to slinging matches and nasty comments when you become extra passionate. Discussion is great IMO, but hateful comments are not.

ETA - if you go in with an open mind, you might learn something. Even if you don't agree, you can still say that you approached something new with an open mind.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Emmala

[Working_Setters]

How do you know people are who they say they are?

I think you can get a pretty good idea from the quality of the info they post. You don't need to know somebodies real name to know whether or not they know what they're talking about.

Also this board is the "public face" of DOL and PMs etc are the "private face". I PM people for additional info on topics they posted on the board, and receive PMs requesting info relating to stuff I've posted, often such an info exchange also leads to the exchange of "real names", email addis and where possible meeting in person.

The Oz dog world is pretty small, especially when you start competing, either in shows or performance events, somebody on here is likely to recognise your style or your dogs, even without a real name. So if, for example, somebody was to claim they’re a top trainer b/c they'd achieved A,B,C with their dogs, those claims would be easy to confirm.

[haven]

Just for the record, for those of you whom were not regualrs on this forum when ROM made *her* OP, this was posted after a number of serial pests created new identities and trolled the training section for the sole purpose of being argumentative and at times extremely rude (even abusive) to the regulars here in regards to certain topics.

At the time there were also a number of newbies with little experience and no qualifications expressing opinions on things they themselves had no (or close to) experience with and making acusations and attacks on those that disagreed (and had the experience and knowledge to back their opinions).

I believe the OP was aimed at those, not people here for a genuine discussion and sharing of knowledge with respect for the views of others.

EFG

Edited June 2, 2007 by haven

[Tangwyn]

somebody on here is likely to recognise your style or your dogs, even without a real name.

Some of us are better at that than others!

[Working_Setters]

somebody on here is likely to recognise your style or your dogs, even without a real name.

Some of us are better at that than others!

LOL Yep you got me there!!

[Arya]

Well said Rom!!! I couldn't agree more.

[Rain]

Good topic. I have been searching and reading about different collars as at my obedience class i was using a soft nylon collar and my boy was pulling a bit on it and asked the instructor how do i correct this. His answer was to put a halti on my 5 month old boy. Straight away my boy slumped to the ground very unhappy with it and tried to paw it off, i was then told to pull his head up with the lead.

With the head halti on he didnt pull but he was like a different dog, he kept pawing at it and slumping to the ground.

That is the only method advised to me on pulling.

I noticed alot of different opinions on the halti some positive some not.

Confuses me even more.

[Tapferhund]

ROM... FANTASTIC post and I thoroughly agree with it !!!

*Titles in the comparatively distraction sterile environment of the obedience ring do not qualify you to challenge the knowledge and experience of the above mentioned professionals*

Titles ARE important ROM and for most of us , as cityor city fringe dwellers , trialing in obedience is ALL that is available as we are NOT in the Police,Armed forces ,Security nor do we have tens of thousands of sheep for our dogs to herd, so we do what we can....OK ! But I will say this , AS an obedience trialer.....once upon a time trialers had an open mind and you could discuss ,learn about and accept all methods of training and training tools with everyone.........but these days far too many are sanctimonious in their outlook on anything "they perceive" as NOT 100% positive reinforcement .....as THEY say.

[ausdogsx6]

I have to agree that acusations and attacks are not necessary and nor should they be tollerated by anyone, however I think you should remember that you must have been one of the newbies once your self. We are entitled to an opinion too, and just because someone is new to DOL or you dont know them, doesnt necessarily mean that they dont know anything. Give newbies a go. We are not all critical of things unknown to us and infact most of us appreciate the advice more than you might expect.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I still consider myself a novice in many pursuits I hold dear.

I agree that dealing with newbies can be frustrating, I think most people go through a "teenage" phase with any new pursuit where they learn enough not to have the dependence of a child, but they know just enough to be really annoying. However, it is not my role to respond to every idiotic thing that is thrown in my path - if I had that approach to life, my dogs would have a field day. As it is, the dogs still get me to 'bite' at their bait on a regular basis (clever bastards)

I work for a law enforcement organisation that trains dogs. I do not train dogs professionally myself - I'm just a community volunteer. What I do get a chance to do is observe those who train professionally for law enforcement work. As with any group of people, there are those you might want to emulate, and those you might not. No group of people is made up entirely of saints or sinners; experts or idiots.

Ultimately any training tool reinforces the person using it as well as the dog, and that's the crucial part for me. I think one of my key training goals is to try to be wise enough to understand how much of what I do is about my own baggage, and how much of it is about what works with my dog.

The thing about aversive techniques is that unless you are an outstanding self-manager (you can always manage your anger, your disappointment, your frustration) you are as likely, and often more likely, to reinforce the meaner parts of yourself by training aversively as you are to get a result.

The thing about positive techniques, is that unless you have really decent self-esteem and good boundaries, you are as likely to reinforce the smaller more pathetic parts of yourself while your dog thinks "cool, I've shaped this treat/toy dispensing machine really well".

Hrm, that's not very cheerful is it? I'm not saying I think we're doomed any which way, more that the use of tools is such a case by case thing, and so dependent on skill, that it's something that will always be subject to ongoing discussion. If there was an easy agreed answer, these threads wouldn't keep coming up on all the online dog spaces I'm in.