Dog Socializing > Risking Parvo Etc?

[ReXy]

So I'm getting my Amstaff tomorrow (woooooo! )

And socialising with other dogs as a puppy is extremely important for this breed, right?

And also, seeing i'm getting it at 8 weeks it hasn't finished it's needles, so it's vunreble to parvo, right?

How can I be socialising my puppy while keeping it as safe as possible?

Catch 22

eghh. how did you guys go about it?

i took my boy out SBT as soon as i got him,,, 8 weeks old,, took him everywhere with me..90 % of the time he was carried , only put on the ground where not a lot of dogs around.. no u can never be 100% sure but socialisation is so important. just being out with new smells new sorroundings etc... i took him to visit dogs where i knew the owners and i knew dogs were all vaccinated and never had any problems

obviously just dont go to the dog park or walking the streets..

i took him to school. shops , market , reli's houses, with their dogs everywhere in car.

he is 8 months now ,a nd only thing he has had is kennel cough , but that was a few months ago, andhe is fully vaccinated,.

good luck,, we will need lots and lots of pics of your new baby

[Zorro_007]

They advise that puppy school is the best start for socialisation. Your puppy will be around dogs of the same age in a sterile environment. My pup just finished and it was fantastic and very beneficial. My vet and puppy teacher also advised that the rules with vaccinations are not as strict as they used to be and before your puppies final injection they are ok to be taken for little walks, as long as it is not in reserves or parks etc.

I disagree with the notion that things are not as strict as they used to be! PARVO is still as prevalent as ever and whoever on here said that it's safe to wait one week after it's 1st shot had better do his/her homework, I find it annoying when such advice is given putting other dogs in danger... The 1st shot, usually administered at 6-8 weeks is never sufficient as there is the high likelihood that the pup is still carrying maternal antibodies and these antibodies neutralise the vaccine therefore rendering it useless.

Your best bet is to go to puppy school and socialise your pup in that environment, meanwhile STAY AWAY from parks and places where other adult dogs are seen as you could literally walk parvo in your home and infect your pup...once again, going to these places and holding your pup in your arms is just as risky as if you were walking him! Take him with you for car rides so that he becomes accustomed to the car and doesn't get car sick besides the fact that he will be seeing people and having friend's dogs over at your place is the way to go and also ask for PROTECH DURAMUNE vaccine as it is a stronger vaccine and it is able to override maternal antibodies when there are still a few lingering around in the pup's system.

Edited December 17, 2006 by Zorro_007

[Zorro_007]

My puppy has just started Puppy School and we were givien the same information as Lily, only he said it was Ok to take them to the park as long as you pick them up when other dogs come over and ask owners if their dog is vacinated and friendly before allowing them to sniff each other (I don't put her down). Also not to allow them any where near Dog poo as that carrries the Parvo virus (hard at a dog park but most people at our local one are very responsible). I just tend to carry her around with me when their are other dogs in the park, I have an older Dog who loves it there and I will be taking them there everyday so the teacher said is best to get her used to the sounds and the people now.

WRONG ADVICE There is absolutely no point in picking up a dog when you see another approach UNLESS you feel that the approaching dog is about to maul your dog. Parvo is not just transmitted by dogs sniffing or greeting each other, parvo is transmitted through the feaces of infected dogs and I can't imagine a dog walking around with a piece of its own turd dangling from its mouth If an infected dog has eliminated in a public park it is highly likely that the area is contaminated and hence other dogs and people will be walking the virus all around and your own shoes are likely to be infected and in turn you will be walking the virus back home. I can't believe that a vet would suggest that you ask other dog owners whether their dog is vaccinated Do you actually expect people to openly admit that their dog is not vaccinated? besides which just because a dog is not vaccinated doesn't go to say that it is harboring the virus and this raises another important point - there is no need to vaccinate a dog every year for the rest of its life...this is overvaccinating and this causes auto-immune problems eventually...if a dog has had its puppy shots and a booster 12 mths later it is protected for life against parvo, hepatitis and distemper and I can guarantee that.

[TangerineDream]

Tango's shots were a fortnight behind schedule so he didn't put a foot on the ground outside his yard till he was 20 weeks old.

.....however I had taken him to the vet for his shots (yes, I carried a wriggling, squirming GSP and didn't put him down till the vet had disinfected the table - yes, you can call me paranoid ), and I took him everywhere with me in the car so that he could see what was going on around him and people could pat him through the cage........he has grown into the most confident, sociable and happy dog you could ever want to meet so I don't think that you can blame not having them on the ground for those first weeks for everything...Tango's proof of that .

[blacklabrador]

Puppy school is held inside on a surface that has been disinfected. The risk of taking them to parks or anywhere public (even the footpath outside your own home) is that a dog in the past that's carried parvo may have crapped there. The virus is extremely hardy and lives in the soil for a long long time.

I have 11 week old pups here who have never been anywhere but puppy school, one other backyard that belongs to a trusted breeder and friend and my own back yard. They had their 2nd vaccinations today so I am happy for them to start socialising more when the ten days is up.

[WreckitWhippet]

I take mine out from eight weeks and have never had a sick puppy and certainly not had one pick up parvo.

[haven]

Tango's shots were a fortnight behind schedule so he didn't put a foot on the ground outside his yard till he was 20 weeks old.

.....however I had taken him to the vet for his shots (yes, I carried a wriggling, squirming GSP and didn't put him down till the vet had disinfected the table - yes, you can call me paranoid ), and I took him everywhere with me in the car so that he could see what was going on around him and people could pat him through the cage........he has grown into the most confident, sociable and happy dog you could ever want to meet so I don't think that you can blame not having them on the ground for those first weeks for everything...Tango's proof of that .

With all due respect, you were lucky. I'm very glad for you that Tango doesn't appear to have any permanant issues due to lack of socialisation during the Critical Period, but not every dog will be that lucky.

if a dog has had its puppy shots and a booster 12 mths later it is protected for life against parvo, hepatitis and distemper and I can guarantee that.

You can guarantee that? Wow....

ETA: Just to avoid confusion, that last quote is from Zorros post, not TD's ;)

Edited December 18, 2006 by haven

[Animal House]

Zorro_007 wrote: snip> if a dog has had its puppy shots and a booster 12 mths later it is protected for life against parvo, hepatitis and distemper and I can guarantee that.

Well, not even a vet would or should guarantee that. ;) Dogs and pups that are fully vaccinated can still get parvo....ask a few Doler's on here that have lost adult dogs to parvo.

Zorro_007 wrotesnip> .once again, going to these places and holding your pup in your arms is just as risky as if you were walking him! <snip>

How can it be dangerous if your dog isnt on the ground?

I carried my staffy (and shes a big girl ) pup around from 11 weeks old to 16 weeks to all the places I could think of, train stations, schools, shopping centres etc...and she only met and played with dogs at my own place who were vaccinated & healthy. When she was fully covered by her vacc's, she was able to walk everywhere, thank goodness because she was by that time rather heavy.

My girls is very well socialised, she loves all dogs she meets, as well as being people friendly.

[samoyedman]

if a dog has had its puppy shots and a booster 12 mths later it is protected for life against parvo, hepatitis and distemper and I can guarantee that.

There's at least 3 DOL'ers who have had their fully vaccinated dogs killed by Parvo.

[Zorro_007]

I am 100% CONFIDENT that a properly immunised adult dog will not catch parvo. I do make a point of demanding to see the sticker that comes with the vial of vaccine, that sticker has an expiry date yet not many vets make a habit of removing this sticker and attaching it to the vaccination certificate which by rights THEY SHOULD!!!! I have heard of many a vet using vaccine that has expired, some make a point of buying expired vaccine for a pittance and yet charge the same exorbitant amount to unsuspecting dog owners!!!

I would like to know the details of how a fully immunised dog that has had its puppy shots at the right stage of its life, that is when maternal antibodies are not floating around so the vaccine is not neutralised...and a booster 12 months later can catch parvo??? something is amiss here and there has got to be an explanation for this!!! I have had adult dogs that have been vaccinated as pups and a booster 12 mths later and then no more shots and 5 years down the track they found themselves in a parvo infected environment, thanks to a bastard of a neighbour with his parvo-infected dobe crapping in my front yard, and yet none and that is not a single dog (12 dogs at the time) caught parvo!!! Unfortunately I lost an entire litter of puppies to parvo. This ****hole of a neighbour knew that his doberman had parvo and still allowed him to crap around the area!!!

CAZBEAR - a dog can indeed catch parvo even if it is not walked on the ground...it seems you are missing a fundamental point here and that is that parvo infects the environment so if a pup is at risk of catching it from walking onto the infected ground then you are going to be picking it up from the soles of your shoes and walking it back home and that is how a dog can then catch it, from the supposedly safe haven of his own home because you walked parvo back home so carrying a dog is not safe...you have been lucky in that there was obviously no parvo to be caught in the 1st place.

WARLEY - well well, you have taken a fair few gambles and came out a winner, wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone was so lucky, lol?!! Parvo is not an imaginary disease, it's very real and just because your dogs escaped it doesn't go to say that every inch of our planet is free of parvo, don't take such a nonchalant attitude, you are playing russian roulette!

HAVEN - where there is a will there is a way and it is possible to socialise a pup without running the risk that it's going to end up dead and a very painful and agonising death at that too, what good is a well socialised dead pup??

Edited December 18, 2006 by Zorro_007

[samoyedman]

I am 100% CONFIDENT that a properly immunised adult dog will not catch parvo.

I'll update this thread soon with a link to one of my threads with some evidence of vaccinated dogs killed by parvo. I was shocked too but this information is from respected DOL'ers who's dogs were killed, and they have no reason to make this up....

[samoyedman]

Here ya go;

http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...c=82452&hl=

[Zorro_007]

Samoyedman, I did not say or even imply that other DOLers have made the stories up; as I said, there must be a reason why adult dogs which are fully immunised end up with parvo and I wonder whether some may have been immunised with an expired vaccine unbeknownst to the dog owner, I really feel that vets should, as a rule, pull of the sticker from the vaccine vial and stick that on the vaccination certificate but how many do that? Anyway, I'm off to read that link you provided.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Zorro_007

[Tangwyn]

Samoyedman, I did not say or even imply that other DOLers have made the stories up; as I said, there must be a reason why adult dogs which are fully immunised end up with parvo and I wonder whether some may have been immunised with an expired vaccine unbeknownst to the dog owner, I really feel that vets should, as a rule, pull of the sticker from the vaccine vial and stick that on the vaccination certificate but how many do that? Anyway, I'm off to read that link you provided.

It is not as uncommon as one would expect for vaccinated dogs to die of parvo. Having worked in a couple of different vet clinics I have seen this happen. There seems to be a definite issue with Rottweilers. There's something about their immune systems that mean some of them don't have a good response to the vaccine. We NEVER used expired vaccines and it wasn't an issue with maternal antibodies because occasionally the dogs would be well over 12 months old (and up to date with booster shots).

Tangwyn

ETA This link provides some more info http://www.mismr.org/educational/parvo.html

Edited December 21, 2006 by Tangwyn

[Zorro_007]

It is not as uncommon as one would expect for vaccinated dogs to die of parvo. Having worked in a couple of different vet clinics I have seen this happen. There seems to be a definite issue with Rottweilers. There's something about their immune systems that mean some of them don't have a good response to the vaccine. We NEVER used expired vaccines and it wasn't an issue with maternal antibodies because occasionally the dogs would be well over 12 months old (and up to date with booster shots).

Tangwyn

ETA This link provides some more info http://www.mismr.org/educational/parvo.html

The only other thing that springs to mind is that whenever vets immunise a dog or cat they hardly ever massage the area thoroughly to dispell the liquid that forms a lump; how many times have I taken a dog home to find that although the vet did give the area a quick rub the lumb was still there; I always make a point of rubbing and kind of lightly squeeze the lump which is usually the size of a pea and that soons eliminates the lump and the vaccine is more easily absorbed into the system rather than just sitting there. Cats are know to develop cancerous lumps due to vaccinations and this is because the area has not been massaged to ensure that the vaccine spreads rather than sitting there in a lump for weeks on end.

Edited December 23, 2006 by Zorro_007

[UltimatePup]

I am also interested in this question - what is the ideal protocol for achieving both a healthy and well socialised puppy?

When it comes to vaccines a very common (entirely understandable) error is to assume that 'vaccinated' means '100% protected'. It doesn't. Most vaccines merely reduce the probability of disease, but don't prevent it across the board. (In fact, some human data even show opposite outcomes - higher rates of Measles and Whooping Cough in kids who've received the 'vaccination' jab that those who haven't...but that gets complicated.) Anyway, it certainly isn't a foolproof science yet.

Someone recommended Protech Duramune. I would be a little concerned about administering a viral preparation so powerful that even maternal antibodies were not able to protect the animal from it, especially seeing as the presence of maternal antibodies surely means that the pup's own immune system isn't up and running yet(?). What happens then? If a pup survives that I'm sure it would be immune; I just don't know that I would take the risk of challenging nature to that extent. (Some people have had horrible trouble with that product...no doubt others haven't, but just FYI: http://www.britfeld.com/vaccine-others.htm)

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[Zorro_007]

I am also interested in this question - what is the ideal protocol for achieving both a healthy and well socialised puppy?

When it comes to vaccines a very common (entirely understandable) error is to assume that 'vaccinated' means '100% protected'. It doesn't. Most vaccines merely reduce the probability of disease, but don't prevent it across the board. (In fact, some human data even show opposite outcomes - higher rates of Measles and Whooping Cough in kids who've received the 'vaccination' jab that those who haven't...but that gets complicated.) Anyway, it certainly isn't a foolproof science yet.

Someone recommended Protech Duramune. I would be a little concerned about administering a viral preparation so powerful that even maternal antibodies were not able to protect the animal from it, especially seeing as the presence of maternal antibodies surely means that the pup's own immune system isn't up and running yet(?). What happens then? If a pup survives that I'm sure it would be immune; I just don't know that I would take the risk of challenging nature to that extent. (Some people have had horrible trouble with that product...no doubt others haven't, but just FYI: http://www.britfeld.com/vaccine-others.htm)

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UP - I have used Protech Duramume and have never had a problem with it...I make a point of asking the vet for some antihistamine needles to take home with me just in case there is an allergic reaction and hour or so later and this would apply to any vaccination not just the Duramune in particular. Why would you want to vaccinate a pup with a product that is too weak to fight any maternal antibodies and hence would be of no protection to the pup whatsoever? what would be the point in vaccinating it in the first place? The whole idea is that this product is designed to override maternal antibodies in order to offer the pup REAL protection and not give people a false sense of security. Parvo is very prevalent and thousands of puppies and dogs are dying from this when it could be so easily prevented if enough homework went into it and if the vaccination protocol was changed. The business of vaccinating pups at 6 weeks of age is a retarded way of thinking, it is or at least should be, common knowledge that a pup at that age is still ridden with maternal antibodies and to vaccinate it with a semi live vaccine or a killed parvo vaccine is just a waste of money, in actual fact a 6 wo pup should NOT be vaccinated then...the 1st jab that a pup should be submitted to is 8-9 weeks but of course that is not music to many a breeder's ear as they like to get them off their hands by the time they are 8 weeks except breeders of toy dogs which hold on to them for a fair while longer.

I kept reading this quote of yours UP........."""Someone recommended Protech Duramune. I would be a little concerned about administering a viral preparation so powerful that even maternal antibodies were not able to protect the animal from it, especially seeing as the presence of maternal antibodies surely means that the pup's own immune system isn't up and running yet(?)."""

And my comments are exactly as I have stipulated above, the presence of maternal antibodies mean that the pup's immune sytem is not capable of fending for itself and that is why the 6 week protocol should be changed otherwise why vaccinate a pup with a weaker vaccine that is not going to work at all and offer the new puppy owners a false sense of security and subject a pup to the danger of catching parvo and dying a painful death? If a pup is immunised at 8 weeks it will be stronger, have less maternal antibodies and be capable of handling a stronger vaccine which will be able to override any lingering antibodies and offer the pup real protection.

[Zorro_007]

UP - just read the info on the link you provided and it's true that some people have lost pups due to vaccinating and some have blamed the Protech vaccine for being responsible but if you read other people's comments on that page you will find that others have also had negative experiences with other vaccines and I have read of people losing dogs or litters of pups when vaccinating them with all kinds of different brands of vaccines, I wouldn't say that it's any vaccine in particular that is more risky than others.

Some puppies can go into anaphylactic shock and if an antihistamine shot is not given as soon as symptoms are observed then of course the puppies or dogs will die hence that is why it is wise to ask the vet for an antihistamine injection or a few in case of a litter to take home with you just in case the dogs do have an allergic reaction.

All vaccines carry an element of risk and that is why I do not believe in yearly boosters but puppy shots and a booster 12-18 months later is a must and if certain particulars are adhered to then you can be sure that your dog will never run the risk of catching parvo and I have mentioned what the particulars are in my other posts in this thread.