Looking Up When Heeling

[stacey and douglas]

For the first six month I did no training with my girl cus I wanted her to have full confidence. This may or may not be the right thing to do, but there we are. I have got her now to a point of obedience which am happy with at home but go out and she falls apart, to much out there to look it. I have used the ball in the past to keep her in drive but this does nothing when out with other dogs. OK so heres where I get to the point. I am using hot dogs to pull her head up and get her looking at me. Should I just let grow abit and stop putting presure on her. At home she is still great but not so good out and about still, She is getting better. She also is only 10 month old and has good high drives. I know it’s me and not her just cant put my finger on it. It just feels like if I can get her looking up at me I'll move forward. I would like to tittle her by this summer and at the rate its not going to happen. Thanks

Edited November 28, 2006 by sasjeep

[MonElite]

Is this what you mean?

If we ever get to meet (this Sunday is looking really good on my side) Ill give you a photocopy of a part from a book that PAX has lend me about Sch training in drive.

It has a very comprahensive explanation of what to do and how to do it and Im happy to say that it works.

Or if you want Ill just tell you the title and the author of the book and you can purchase it for yourself.

I dont expect miracles from my puppy and she wont do this for long, but in the photo she is off lead in a dog park and there are dogs around.

Other than that you can try spitting food - few people here use that method.

I would like to tittle her by this summer and at the rate its not going to happen.

what title do you want for her? if you want obiedience title such as CCD or CD the dog doesnt have to look up at you to get its title.

Edited November 28, 2006 by myszka

[dogdude]

Hi Sasjeep

It sounds to me like your dogs problem might lie with a lack of socialization with the outside world. If you exaust all of his interests in all the strange and new things, he will be fine. Getting focus is great for a working obedience dog while the "switch is on", the difference being that you are simply walking him, not working him. It is asking too much of a dog IMO to have the switch turned on all the time. Formal training at a club will allow you to both regulate that switch when needed, and also exaust his interest in other dogs and people.

Being in "prey drive" is a little more complex than just having a ball in your hand. It sounds like his version of prey drive is everything else he sees while out walking, which has a higher value to him than the ball.

A 10 month old pup wants to explore the world, and he should be encouraged to do so under your watchfull eye.

[leopuppy04]

I'd lower the criteria when you are outside in distractions - don't ask her to do anything but look at you and pay her for that. By asking her to heel and look at you may be really hard if she is distracted by the environment. Let her know that by looking at you she gets paid no matter what the distractions. Then gradually work your way up to what you are getting out of her at home. Remember she is young - the world is full of excitement so we need to lower the criteria so that she can 'succeed'. At home there are no distractions so working for you is an easy alternative .

As for the titles etc - while Myszka is right - you don't NEED the dog to look at you for any obedience level, if that is what you want for your end goal, work for it now.... it is much easier to start training for precision at day one then change the criteria half way through when the dog is already set in concrete.

JMHO

[dogdude]

As for the titles etc - while Myszka is right - you don't NEED the dog to look at you for any obedience level, if that is what you want for your end goal, work for it now.... it is much easier to start training for precision at day one then change the criteria half way through when the dog is already set in concrete.

JMHO

I am confused by this statement. Are you saying that a dog does not need to look at its handler while working? If so, how is the dog supposed to cue itself using your body language or hand signals?

[MonElite]

For a CCD and a CD the dog can be watching your feet while you walk, and the hand signals are pretty much in the dogs face. The dog doesnt have to heel looking at your face, this is what we meant.

[leopuppy04]

As for the titles etc - while Myszka is right - you don't NEED the dog to look at you for any obedience level, if that is what you want for your end goal, work for it now.... it is much easier to start training for precision at day one then change the criteria half way through when the dog is already set in concrete.

JMHO

I am confused by this statement. Are you saying that a dog does not need to look at its handler while working? If so, how is the dog supposed to cue itself using your body language or hand signals?

I am saying that I have seen many dogs in Open and UD that don't look at the owner but rather straight ahead. They aren't watching the owners intently... not saying that this is right because as you say, they may miss signals.. but keep in mind that dogs have a large peripheral vision so although they are looking straight ahead, they can still see our signals. What I am trying to say is that there is nowhere in the rulebook (as far as I know) that states your dog must be looking at you while heeling.... they just need to heel and do what is asked.

[Steve K9Pro]

S: For the first six month I did no training with my girl cus I wanted her to have full confidence. This may or may not be the right thing to do, but there we are.

K9: Just so you know, its the wrong thing to do... It wont add confidence, rather it may be the source of the current problem..

S: I have got her now to a point of obedience which am happy with at home but go out and she falls apart, to much out there to look it. I have used the ball in the past to keep her in drive but this does nothing when out with other dogs. OK so heres where I get to the point. I am using hot dogs to pull her head up and get her looking at me.

K9: It sounds like your trying to teach attention in the face of distraction?

S: She also is only 10 month old and has good high drives.

K9: which drive is high?

Edited November 29, 2006 by K9 Force

[Kavik]

I am a food spitter and glad to say we are back to it after a forced break when Diesel had to be on z/d for suspected food allergies. I also use a clicker.

I agree with leopuppy and would lower expectations. Diesel heels great at training and now at the park but in new locations he gets distracted and doesn't work so well, so we are working on simpler things such as only eye contact, or exercises he knows well and will get his attention such as a short come-fore. I also use a high rate of reinforcement in these cases to keep his attention.

[dogdude]

Leopuppy04, Myszka,

I now understand your point regarding the rules, but I still think it should be standard practice to teach a trialling dog correct focus ie; handlers midriff - chest area. This is where your hand signals begin to be sighted by the dog, but more importantly, where your body signals change of pace. When you move forward, your upper body naturally bends forward under the momentum (cue for dog to move off or increase pace). The opposite happens when we slow down (body slowly straightens) (cue for dog to slow down or stop & sit). When teaching this to a green dog, I exaggerate the motion slightly, until it is clearly understood.

If the dog is allowed to look in any other area while working, it will be more likely to be distracted or miss a signal.

It can take a very long period of time (up to a year) for a dog to heel properly at the proper trialling level while focusing its vision upward. The dog virtually has to learn to walk and balance itself again as its an unnatural position regarding balance.

Edited November 29, 2006 by dogdude

[MonElite]

You might also consider that some dogs that are being trialled are also show dogs and are tought to gait looking straight ahead instead at the handler.

[wheres my rock]

we do both trot trot for showing look aead and gait and clos for heeling look up and stay foccussed.

I love watching dogs heel that have total focus on their handler head up ready for the next cue

[Rom]

Hey Myszka, that photo is beautiful....love the focus you have there!

BTW, I wouldn't mind the title of the book that you're talking about....

[MonElite]

Shutzhund obiedience

Training in drive

with Gottfried Dildei by Sheila Booth

love the focus you have there!

It only lasts for a short while unfortunatelly, but we will get there one day, so I hope....

But here is another if you liked the first one

Edited November 29, 2006 by myszka

[stacey and douglas]

All good stuff guys. Now all I need is more time to train and a good trailing group closer to me then the western subs. cheers

[leopuppy04]

Dogduge,

I agree with you - I think that the dogs should be looking at handlers etc when in the trial ring - at least then your dog is less likely to miss signals etc. BUT all I was trying to tell the OP that if she doesn't wish it, she is not going to lose any points. Of all the trialling dogs I watch the majority that do well are the ones that are attentive to their owners. But I still also stand by and say I have seen some top winning dogs that look straight ahead, but can keep up with their owners through their peripheral vision.

Myszka - I don't show my dog but he knows the stuff about showing for all of the one show per year we enter! I use a different cue - 'heel' means 'heel and look at me' and 'gait' means prance around the ring! LOL!

[wheres my rock]

yup iahev vids of all the top dog performances most dont look up

[Mooper]

Shutzhund obiedience

Training in drive

with Gottfried Dildei by Sheila Booth

I thought that was the book you were talking about. I bought it from Dogwise recently -- it's great so far! And their service was quick and postage not too expensive. I hadn't used them before, but will use them again

ETA: After receiving a PM about postage, I should clarify that I ordered a few books, so $20.70USD didn't hurt the pocket too much. I could have got one or two of the books in Australia for similar money, even after accounting for the exchange rate.

Edited December 1, 2006 by Mooper

[J...]

Is there anywhere in Aus I can get the Training in Drive book from?

I'd love to get my hands on a copy but if I order off Dogwise I'd have to order a few books/DVDs to justify the postage Damn!!!! Credit card's gonna cop another hiding

[wheres my rock]

vca library has it