KismetKat Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I have read here mixed opinions about something called the 'alpha roll'. Is it good or bad? If your dog has seriously trangressed, what would really ram the message home? I've generally used the "grabbing dog by the muzzle" response, along with a long, growled, "Nooooooo". If the trangression is serious enough, is this enough? Or am I being too hard? Are other methods (alpha roll, picking dog up by front legs, whatever) better responses? The situation I am wanting to discipline her with is her, occasional, reactiveness to small scared dogs. ADT tell me a correction - but she has a neck like a mallee bull! Thus the muzzle grabbing - correction on chain seems to have little effect. She IS learning that I am not happy with her reaction to a small percentage of dogs, and we do have improvement - but is what I am doing right or wrong? Help and advice please from experienced dog owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I would stay right away from the Alpha roll, but that is just me. I will usually turn in the opposite direction before a dog starts up and then go back and try again, if not successful then we turn around again. I don't lay my hands on my dogs in an aggressive manner, this may work for some people but it's just not my personal style and it's not gaining the end results I would like to see. If you're not able to handle a situation yourself I would suggest you hook up with someone that is able to assist you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted November 27, 2006 Author Share Posted November 27, 2006 SAS - we've been doing the 'turn your back' thing for months about a particular bad behaviour (too much excitment with visitors). Perhaps we just have too few visitors for the discipline to work? However I do admit she is calming down quicker but I have had to add, lately, putting her on the lead and giving corrections. I have hooked up with ADT who suggest corrections on the chain - all very well when she is on lead - but what about when off? The upcoming scenario I am worried about is we are holidaying at my SIL's with her 2 JR crosses. Their bush garden now has some ponds and a bluetongue has taken residence. MY SIL's dogs are keen to have a go at it, despite what sounds like heavy handed discipline. The dogs are 2 boys and my girl thinks herself something of an alpha female - and I am sure she will want to 'go' this poor bluetongue too! What can I do to well and truly show her that this is "NOT ON!" She's a bitza with more than a dash of terrier on her plus some BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I wouldn't do the alpha roll. A blue tongue has no chance here In our old place I came home to one dead blue tongue a week for 5 weeks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 (edited) I ignore my dogs if they're challenging me. I ignore them when I get home for about 5 minutes and I pay them no attention if they come to me wanting attention, I do everything on my own terms.....a couple of years ago I would have thought this was a really harsh method. I have had a dog in the past the was aggressive to other dogs, I must admit I have learned alot since then but I did seek help from a behaviourist. How about not setting the dog up for faliure? I.e. you know what faults your dog has, so avoid it until you have done the ground work. I.e I know my girl walks fantastic on her own, but you put her with another dog and she'll pull and be a right cow, so I don't put her in that situation, I go back and do more ground work. These are just my opinions, there are so many different methods. In regards to the blue tounge lizard....well that's just rather tempting isn't it. Teaching the 'leave it' command perhaps? But instinct is instinct isn't it? I'd be more thinking along the lines of providing the lizard with a safe haven that is safe from the dogs. Edited November 27, 2006 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted November 27, 2006 Author Share Posted November 27, 2006 SAS - yes I have been ignorning my dog when I come home. She calms eventually and I call her and make her sit then say 'hello'. We have been working on this. We are also working on her reactiviness to some dogs - but it is not cut and dried what dogs she is reactive to! She's fine with the vast majority of dogs. If i could define the sort of dogs she was reactive to I would say 'some small fluffies and puppies' - yet many small fluffies she is fine with, and as for puppies, well I had a 9 week old lab pup visit the other week and they got on like a house on fire. However with rewards for nice bahaviour, and corrections for any snappiness, it all does seem to be improving. We plug away at this. As for the bluetongue - tis not my backyard. And the boys in residence are already having a go. Add the cousin (bigger, stronger and maybe faster) ... My dog has a 'leave it' but I unless I am there... What about when we go to the beach? Terriers can be so cat like into getting up to naughtiness just cos you are not there to see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I say head to a behaviourist if you've tried what you have and you're not getting the desired result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted November 27, 2006 Author Share Posted November 27, 2006 We are getting results - slowly but surely. The problem with a behaviourist is getting the behaviourist to actually witness the behaviour! We've been under the auspices of a trainee trainer for weeks and weeks with ADT, and only once has she managed to see my dog react in the way I have been describing. And how 'aggressive' this truly is is hard to gauge - she does similar behaviour in play with dogs she knows. So short of letting her actually go ahead and see if she attacks... well it is hard to say what is going on. Is she just excited? So the training/correction is more about encouraging more quiet behaviour, and corrected what may be either a) over exuberance or b) aggression. It''s all hard to tell - but I am erring on the side of caution. She's not managed to actually attack anything! Now, about that bluetongue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I would also stay away from the alpha roll as a 'punishment'. I have used a dominance down on both my dogs right since day one, but it is not the same as most people here think when they think of an alpha roll. I would still never do it if one of my dogs was being pushy because I am not about to risk having my face snapped at, you just never know. When either of my boys are being right little snots and the usual growling doesn't work I will scruff them while growling. Works every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybeece Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 How about not setting the dog up for faliure? This! x100 I'd either avoid putting my dog in the position where he would need a severe reprimand it or accept that it was my fault that he was in that position in the first place. The way I see it is that he has a conditioned response to certain situations and can't help this so if I put him in that position, I don't punish him for it as he's only doing what he knows. I just make sure to watch his body language very closely so I can prevent him practising his little lunge/bark/drool routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted November 27, 2006 Author Share Posted November 27, 2006 I appreciate the 'not set the dog up for failure' idea - I do this at home and in my training sessions. But our family holiday is staying in a relo's house. I may be being a worrywort here, but can just imagine if her doggy cousins are gunning for this poor bluetongue, then my dog will happily take the lead. She will be in the backyard with them while we are out at the beach with the kids. Is this an impossible situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shekhina Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 When you're correcting with a chain, I'm assuming a check chain (?) do you have the chain around the base of the neck or up behind the ears? If you place the chain up around the top of the neck, right behind the jaw bone and behind the ears you are going to have a lot more control and dogs will necks like bulls will feel you correcting them. I always move the check chain up behind the ears if I am walking Daegon and I see another dog approaching. Daegon is pretty much bomb-proof when walking and he doesn't really react anymore than to become alert...but just in case I want that extra control should I need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 I don't know what you can do about the bluetongue - is there a way you can keep it separate from the dogs? Or if you are so worried about it - can you put her away so she can't get to the bluetongue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted November 27, 2006 Author Share Posted November 27, 2006 Shek - thanks for info about placement of check chains - I will try and keep it higher but given my mutts odd body shape, this may be difficult. Kavik - basically if we are out she has the run of the house and backyard with her doggy cousins. That being said, she tends to maintain a vigil on the front deck awaiting my return. Perhaps I should speak to my SIL about a fence for the bluetongue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belijae Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 These are two books that I think are great, they have helped us tame the young and unruly golden retriever that we have been babysitting! Both promote non aggressive training, getting your dog to respect you, stop confusing your dog with mixed signals, etc. I borrowed them from the library and was AMAZED how quickly it turned the rambunctious teen into a polite little lady (who still jumps around like an idiot sometimes, but in her own space at least - especially just before she gets her dinner) For a quick read... Author McKenna, Martin. Title The dogman : an expert explains dog sense For an in depth read... Author McConnell, Patricia B. Title The other end of the leash : why we do what we do around dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Why don't you put the dog in a kennel. It might be a more relaxing holiday for everyone involved..... Also "Cesars Way" is a great read, talks about dogs make up and pack behavior. Kmart sells it for about $17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 Why don't you put the dog in a kennel. :D belijae - I have read 'the other end of the leash' - think it is a great book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 (edited) I would do whatever it takes to convince the dog it has seriously erred. However I'm unable to give you specific advice as each dog is different. What would crush one dog, another might barely notice. Your response needs to be appropriate to your dog. ETA my response would be physical. Highly agree with comments already made about correct check chain placement, high up the neck, just behind ears, is sooooooo much more effective. It seems to me that it maybe very difficult to proof this behaviour in time for your up coming holiday, particularly as you're planning to leave the dog in the backyard unsupervised for hours on end. Separation seems to me the best short term solution, if you wont kennel the dog, the perhaps a crate or some other means to keep the dogs physically separated. Edited November 28, 2006 by Working_Setters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KismetKat Posted November 28, 2006 Author Share Posted November 28, 2006 oooh I couldn't bear to leave her in a kennel (where's that crying smiley?) - tis the whole reason we holiday with family so the furkid can come too! She won't be unsupervised for 'hours' - she and her dog cousins have the run of the house and yard, and if we go to the beach (I generally last about an hour) my SIL is still generally home pottering in the shed. I have already been working a lot on her chasing instinct and maybe a still blue tongue she wouldn't even notice! But then again, one of her dog cousins certainly has - so he could teach her If it does prove to be a problem I guess I could always take her to the beach with me (it's that sort of beach and just across the road too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working_Setters Posted November 28, 2006 Share Posted November 28, 2006 Ok - I got a bit confused, I thought you were concerned about aggression from your dog toward dog cousins, but re-reading I see the thread has split into dog/dog issues and dog/lizard issues. My original post was in regard to dog/dog issues. Dog/lizard issues when the dogs in question are JRTs, that's a whole different issue..................best of luck with that one!! It's possible to reptile proof your dogs (search for snake proofing), but that seems a little extreme in this case. What I'd probably do is as soon as you arrive and nobody else can see the backyard, is coming dashing into the house and say "I saw a huge kookaburra in the backyard just now and I think he was having a go at your blue tounge". That way if the lizard does go missing, you can always blame the 'burra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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