Livi Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 lilysmum you don't have any children do you ? IMO you are humanising baby pups a bit too much. I think it is a bit extreme to expect that people shouldn't have a puppy if they work full time. I am home most of the time and my dogs spend the majority of it lounging about anyway, while my presence may be a comfort to them I really don't think it is necessary for their wellbeing I couldn't honestly say I spend any more "quality time" with my dogs than a person who works full time would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Do you disagree then that baby pups need three or four regularly-spaced meals per day? Do you disagree then that following meals a baby pup must be taken outside to toilet? Because everything I've ever learnt, from vets, breeders, shelters, and rescue groups, is that [weaned] baby pups (that is, pups aged between 8wks and 16 wks) need those two things from their owners. If said owner is at work for 10 hours, five days per week, I can't see how that person can deliver those things to their baby pup without someone else caring for the animal as well. With human babies, it's close to the same thing, isn't it? A baby human requires regularly-spaced meals per day, and also requires regular nappy changes following those meals...the main difference is that newborn humans require this care around-the-clock for a little longer than do baby pups. I'm not sure if there are other valid comparisons though, do you? So perhaps if someone is away from home for 10 hours per day, they could reverse their pup's schedule so that the animal is fed and toileted during the night, and the pup is left to its own devices through the day? Do you think that would work? Or perhaps not feeding the pup those extra meals isn't really necessary and the people I've consulted over the years have not been telling me the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toohey Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 lilysmum you don't have any children do you ? IMO you are humanising baby pups a bit too much.I think it is a bit extreme to expect that people shouldn't have a puppy if they work full time. I am home most of the time and my dogs spend the majority of it lounging about anyway, while my presence may be a comfort to them I really don't think it is necessary for their wellbeing I couldn't honestly say I spend any more "quality time" with my dogs than a person who works full time would. Ditto to the questions that Lillysmum has asked. I would not leave a baby puppy alone for more than four hours, and would not sell a pup to someone who would. If someone is working fulltime I believe they should make arrangements to either get home during the day and give the puppy lunch and a little company, or, organise for a freind/neighbour to drop in and do same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikle Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 I had someone feed Douglas his lunch and toilet him until he was 4 months, towards the end he stopped eating his lunch, decided he didn't really need it. He now is on 2 meals a day and at home for about 9 hours a day, and has been for 3 months. The main reason I got someone to feed him was to check if he was ok. My breeder was fine with me leaving him from 8 weeks at home while we worked.. she said his 3 meals could consist of breakfast, dinner (as soon as we got home) and supper before we went to bed. Your pup will be fine. Working is part of life. A lot of people with dogs work full time. As much as we would love to be at home with the dogs, someone has to pay the mortgage. Perhaps you could set up a webcam or something similar to keep an eye on him while you are at work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 If an owner of a young pup is out from 7am - 5pm obviously it would be a good idea to have someone come in and give some lunch. However if that is not possible feeding breakfast and leaving some kibble and/or other suitable food/s and plenty of water, having the pup in a secure and safe area outside or with access to outside or an area where it can go to the toilet without assistance (puppies do not need their nappy changed, they just need a place to go) really isn't the worst life. I don't know that it is absolutely necessary for pups to be fed by the clock, what is so bad about leaving 1/3 of the daily intake for the pup to graze on during the day if the owner can't be home ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 So Lilly, you're fine with someone who works full time to have a puppy if they can have someone feed it the meals it requires during the day? That seems to be your main validation point here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 lilysmum you don't have any children do you ? IMO you are humanising baby pups a bit too much. I think it is a bit extreme to expect that people shouldn't have a puppy if they work full time. I am home most of the time and my dogs spend the majority of it lounging about anyway, while my presence may be a comfort to them I really don't think it is necessary for their wellbeing I couldn't honestly say I spend any more "quality time" with my dogs than a person who works full time would. Ditto to the questions that Lillysmum has asked. I would not leave a baby puppy alone for more than four hours, and would not sell a pup to someone who would. If someone is working fulltime I believe they should make arrangements to either get home during the day and give the puppy lunch and a little company, or, organise for a freind/neighbour to drop in and do same. Yes and that is what we have been discussing, that if you have a puppy then you'll need to have someone pop into to feed it its meals during the day and have some interaction time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toohey Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 Yes and that is what we have been discussing, that if you have a puppy then you'll need to have someone pop into to feed it its meals during the day and have some interaction time. Sorry, but what is your point? I should not add my thoughts on the matter? If you believe a pup needs feeding/checking during a long day alone, why are you questioning LM? Sunny70 for one seems to think it is OK to leave a puppy for ten hours with kibble. Why not argue with him/her instead? I know the general trend around here is to disagree with Lillysmum, and I have certainly done so in the past, but I agree with her on this issue, especially being that it is my breed that the OP is referring to. I will support her in her opinion, rather than picking her post to pieces just for the sake of argument, as it seems others in this thread are doing. Nobody has a monopoly on answering queries in these forums. It is an open discussion board. State your thoughts and let the OP take the info provided on board and do with it what they consider best for their dog and their situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 (edited) Yes and that is what we have been discussing, that if you have a puppy then you'll need to have someone pop into to feed it its meals during the day and have some interaction time. Sorry, but what is your point? I should not add my thoughts on the matter? If you believe a pup needs feeding/checking during a long day alone, why are you questioning LM? Sunny70 for one seems to think it is OK to leave a puppy for ten hours with kibble. Why not argue with him/her instead? I know the general trend around here is to disagree with Lillysmum, and I have certainly done so in the past, but I agree with her on this issue, especially being that it is my breed that the OP is referring to. I will support her in her opinion, rather than picking her post to pieces just for the sake of argument, as it seems others in this thread are doing. Nobody has a monopoly on answering queries in these forums. It is an open discussion board. State your thoughts and let the OP take the info provided on board and do with it what they consider best for their dog and their situation. Looks like you took me the wrong way, I was just asking what your opinion was in regards to homing a puppy with a family who would arrange for someone to come and feed to puppy during the day VS a family that does not have someone come in and check on a puppy. This thread didn't start out by talking about the possibility of having someone come in a feed the puppy and interact with it, perhaps this is where the cnfusion has arrisen from? I have mentioned earlier in this thread that I do not feel it is suitable for a puppy to be left alone for 8-10 hours per day, however in this situation the person is going to do this, so rather than just jumping down their throats which I do not feel is productive, why not give them some feedback as to what they can do to make this a more viable situation and this is when having someone come in and feed the puppy and interact with it during the day came into the conversation. I haven't jumped on LM on this thread at all. I actually posted before she did and only just now asked her for clarification on post at the top of this page. This is a public forum, I can challenge LM's comments just as she challenges mine, I'm sure she's not curled up in a corner rocking back and forth. As LM says this is a public forum where everyone is entitled to their own opinion. In addition people in the puppy problem forum are usually new to DOL and their learning curve is just begining so rather than being negative and making them feel like an incompetent dog owner I feel that the better approach is looking at all sides. Again I don't agree with the situation but I can look at the other side of the coin to see some viable options to make it work. Edited December 2, 2006 by sas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 (edited) In this case the OP hasn't left their puppy alone for 10 hours. I believe ideally a very young pup would be better off having someone to check in during the day but reality is that isn't always possible. I feel you have interpreted my post Toohey that I am saying dumping a bowl of kibble and leaving a pup without a care in the world is OK ? That is not the case. Toys, a secure environment and abiltiy to toilet appropriately, shelter, water etc etc and LOTS of interaction during the hours of the day the owners are home are also vital. To be honest I can't see that it would make that much difference to a pup if someone delivers lunch and gives them a pat for a short period during the day, in fact it could possibly just make them pine for company twice during the day instead of once ? I really want to know what is SO bad about a pup being left all day between 8-16 weeks other than being given lunch ? Obviously the pup is going to be lonely etc at first but isn't that the case regardless of if the pup is left for 4,6,8 or 10 hours ? *Edited typo I think a lot of people would be excluded from dog ownership if they were expected to be able to leave a pup for no more than 4 hours for the first two months of ownership. Edited December 2, 2006 by sunny70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilyW Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Some of you agree that a puppy should not be left alone for so many hours a day. Which is fine. I can't be home or get home during the week, nor can i get anyone over to feed my pup. That is just the way it is. We feed her before we leave, we leave food around the backyard for her to find during the day, a bit of a game, which is always gone when we get home. And then we feed her once home. When i took her to the vet for a check the other day, he said she is growing extremely well and seems to be a really well relaxed pup - so i was very happy to hear that. I know there are rules etc with pups and everyone is different but my girl is ok - that is the point i am trying to make - sure she would rather us be around all the time, but it just can't happen. Everyone's advice is valuable and i appriciate it but sometimes you try different things from various advice. I had a housewarming last night and i was advised by many that my pup should be locked in a room away from everyone etc. I then asked the same question during puppy school on what they thought, as my pup is currently being kept outside, i figured it would be harder for her to be locked away. They said it would be a great social event for her and just to keep your eye on things and she how see goes. We decided not to lock her away and she had a great night, everyone was very well behaved with our rules and everyone loved her and she seemed to love everyone else - so though most people advised it would be too much and should be locked away, i decided to do what i thought would be best for my pup and it worked out - i know i am going off track but my point is, we can all offer advice on what we think is right but in the end we all own or have owned pups and sometimes we need to make the decisions of what is best for our dogs in our situation. Sometimes a bit of help is nice but in the end what we do with our pups is our decision - and obviously here we can just continue to agree to disagree on this and many issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Yes, I believe it's important for a young pup to have someone check on its well-being on a regular and frequent basis - that includes feeding, toileting and ensuring the pup isn't sick. It's not acceptable to just leave a bowl of food as I've said numerous times, b/c if a pup or dog is sick, one of the first symptoms is lack of appetite. Free-feeding can completely mask a dog that is off its food. Similarly, not having someone competent check on a pup on a regular and frequent basis can mean if that pup gets sick, it can die alone - pups crash very fast when they get something as "minor" as a tummy upset b/c it can lead to severe dehydration. But then I'm involved with rescue where we do sometimes see some nasty outcomes for pups and dogs due to illness that's been ignored or left too long before a vet consult, possibly b/c nobody is home or available to check on the pup or dog. I'd rather not home a baby pup to someone that's isn't able to provide care for that pup during the time the person will be at work - whether that be the person coming home at lunchtime, or employing a puppy walker, or getting a trusted friend or relative to care for the pup - b/c there are too many things that can go wrong. Sure, most survive their puppyhood apparently unscathed. But I wouldn't take the risk that something terrible could happen in my absence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoemonster Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 I must be a very bad owner then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 I must be a very bad owner then Yes, I'm sure anyone could draw any conclusion from what I've posted if they want to. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 At what age do you think a dog can be left alone for a working day lillysmum ? IMO one would be extremely unlucky to leave a healthy pup in a safe and secure environment, where it is able to toilet appropriately and has access to food/water/shelter/entertainment, and come back to find it dead or near death. Can you give some examples of the nasty outcomes you have seen for pups left alone during the day, in your rescue experience ? I am very interested to learn more about this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 But then I'm involved with rescue where we do sometimes see some nasty outcomes for pups and dogs due to illness that's been ignored or left too long before a vet consult, possibly b/c nobody is home or available to check on the pup or dog. I'd rather not home a baby pup to someone that's isn't able to provide care for that pup during the time the person will be at work - whether that be the person coming home at lunchtime, or employing a puppy walker, or getting a trusted friend or relative to care for the pup - b/c there are too many things that can go wrong. Sure, most survive their puppyhood apparently unscathed. But I wouldn't take the risk that something terrible could happen in my absence... you can stop saying it, we ALL know, you are involved in rescue. that Does NOT make you an expert. You do NOT know everything about everything (though you like to believe you do?) Im with Shoey, Atlas was left alone from the age of 10 weeks, 9 hours a day - it only lasted 3 weeks, because i broke my foot and couldnt work - But had i not done that, then yes, he would have been left alone - He got 2 meals a day, one in the morning, one at night Kaos was 4 months when i got her and she went the same way, left alone outside, once again, had she been 8 weeks, she prob would still beoutside. I do have someone who can pop in and feed them, but then they would get used to that and expect it - I rather my dogs go into the routine they will have for their whole lives. My dogs now stay home 9 hours a day while i am working, from tomorrow till christmas it will be 11 hours a day - i have jobs to do (walking other peoples pets while they are away) They are fine, and dont rreally care if i am home or not ! Right now, i am home with them, they are both asleep on my bed. If your dog is happy and healthy then who cares? Not everyone can come home every few hours to check on a dog - and any dog can get sick and die in a few hours, not only puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilyW Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 I will make sure i keep you all updated on the progress of my pups health throughout the next few months, cause i work so, you know, who knows what could happen. Mind you, pups from 8 weeks to 16-17 weeks have regular vet visits for vaccinations and desexing etc. Plus puppy school, if you do it, also if i am ever unsure about anything i take her, i am more than happy to pay the money to be safe - so to say for the time i am at work my pup could be sick and i wouldn't know is just ridiculous - there is more to a puppy being sick then just not eating. Drinking, temperament etc also has alot to do with it. And as i said, we all own our own dogs, so in the end we should know our pups better then anyone, as would be the same with your own children. As i saw in the Herald Sun today, all these pups looking for homes - one of them had "my owner can't afford me" and it was only 8 weeks old. But i work, so i can afford to give my puppy everything she needs for a happy and loving life!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LilyW Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 But then I'm involved with rescue where we do sometimes see some nasty outcomes for pups and dogs due to illness that's been ignored or left too long before a vet consult, possibly b/c nobody is home or available to check on the pup or dog. I'd rather not home a baby pup to someone that's isn't able to provide care for that pup during the time the person will be at work - whether that be the person coming home at lunchtime, or employing a puppy walker, or getting a trusted friend or relative to care for the pup - b/c there are too many things that can go wrong. Sure, most survive their puppyhood apparently unscathed. But I wouldn't take the risk that something terrible could happen in my absence... :D you can stop saying it, we ALL know, you are involved in rescue. that Does NOT make you an expert. You do NOT know everything about everything (though you like to believe you do?) Im with Shoey, Atlas was left alone from the age of 10 weeks, 9 hours a day - it only lasted 3 weeks, because i broke my foot and couldnt work - But had i not done that, then yes, he would have been left alone - He got 2 meals a day, one in the morning, one at night Kaos was 4 months when i got her and she went the same way, left alone outside, once again, had she been 8 weeks, she prob would still beoutside. I do have someone who can pop in and feed them, but then they would get used to that and expect it - I rather my dogs go into the routine they will have for their whole lives. My dogs now stay home 9 hours a day while i am working, from tomorrow till christmas it will be 11 hours a day - i have jobs to do (walking other peoples pets while they are away) They are fine, and dont rreally care if i am home or not ! Right now, i am home with them, they are both asleep on my bed. If your dog is happy and healthy then who cares? Not everyone can come home every few hours to check on a dog - and any dog can get sick and die in a few hours, not only puppies. Well said Terrorbull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog_Horse_Girl Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Parvo virus. Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted December 3, 2006 Share Posted December 3, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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