Prong Collars

[Steve K9Pro]

TDS: just because you have not had the chance to bully me in the same way that I have watched you "pro cruelty people" bully others does not make my opinion any less valid.

K9: this is 100% true, so then I guess you would also agree that us "pro cruelty" people are allowed our opinion & it is no less valid either?

TDS: Prong collars are not a training tool in the same way a cattle prod is not a training tool, they are a correction tool.

K9: oh ok, can you name one training tool then? Something that will train the animal without the handler?

TDS: They do not teach or train the animal anything,

K9: No argument there, is anyone saying that the collar teaches a dog anything?

TDS: all they do is cause pain and discomfort.

K9: again, do the collars do this? so my prong sitting next to me is capable of hurting my dog all on its own? I think your giving a piece of stainless steel way to much credit...

TDS: I will let you in on something

K9: Oh goodie, here comes the secret to success, I have been waiting soo long...

TDS: the key to animal training and that is any animal training is to get the animal to WANT to do what you want the animal to do.

K9: wow, I thought you were gonna tell me something new?

TDS: when you can use your brain to train the dog that is when I think you are a trainer. I would love for some of you people to use a prong collar,or any collar for that mater on a dolphin.

K9: Dolphins arent dogs & the same training principles dont apply, so of course you wouldnt use a prong on a dolphin. Nor would I expect the Dolphin to complete field work as I would a dog... I cant see this point having any relevance at all...

TDS: BTW I have trained my dogs to multiple titles in multiple dog sports (no bimbo show ring stuff here) and I believe that I can stand by my own credentials. putting on flame suit now.

K9: Ok well lets just leave the flame suit for now, how about showing us your dogs? What about a meet where you bring your perfectly trained dogs & show us all what were doing wrong?

Show us "pro cruelty" people how its done?

Or how about something easy, I will give you a dog & you can demonstrate some "dolphin magic" for us?

How do I already know that this will never happen?

Edited November 30, 2006 by K9 Force

[arby]

I agree with K9 has anyone ever actually read on any of the training post that we think the prong collar is some miracle tool that trains our dogs???

I think all prong users agree its not a solution but an aid.

Frankly if the prong was so cruel my dog wouldnt be all happy and cheery when he's on it. Hell he even sit and stare at it until we take him for a walk. Yes on his prong. It seems to me he only associates positive stuff with it, that really must make me cruel. Since we started using it our boxer doesnt foam at the mouth or have breathing problems like he used to on walks when we used a flat collar or a choke chain

[Troy]

TDS no longer has access

[KitKat]

Thanks Troy

[arby]

Thanks Troy

[Erny]

... "pro cruelty people" ...

Yep. That's why all the dogs we train and work with hate us and hate what they do ....................... not.

Prong collars are not a training tool in the same way a cattle prod is not a training tool, they are a correction tool. They do not teach or train the animal anything, all they do is cause pain and discomfort.

You've actually made very clear here how little you know about how dogs learn. Shall I explain? ..... no - unless you can honestly tell me to the contrary, I doubt your mind is open to learning. But I'll give a hint. How do you think dogs in the wild learn?

I will let you in on something ....

Oooooooh. Thanks.

... the key to animal training and that is any animal training is to get the animal to WANT to do what you want the animal to do......

Oh. So you're one of the many who take on the approach that BECAUSE training collars are used, that's ALL that is used. Mmmmmm. Must admit, I have noticed that there are more than one of you.

... when you can use your brain to train the dog that is when I think you are a trainer.

Ummmm, when does YOUR brain come into the equation?

I would love for some of you people to use a prong collar,or any collar for that mater on a dolphin.

Oh yes. This one. A common reference point. HERE's a link to a post I made about this some time ago. I think it explains it. But in case you don't take the interest to visit there, I'll ask you ..... do you really see dolphins thrust into and amongst society and our modern, busy and often dangerous environment as dogs are?

I will let you all go on now and attack me, maybe I am a troll.

Certainly coming across that way. But even still, I reply only because there might be hope for you yet, even though I suspect none.

BTW I have trained my dogs to multiple titles in multiple dog sports (no bimbo show ring stuff here) and I believe that I can stand by my own credentials. putting on flame suit now.

You write a lot but say nothing. For all we know, you could be speaking of agility training. Not running that sport down nor the work that goes behind achieving high level titles. But the only thing (most times) that happens when your dog makes a mistake is the loss of a pass and/or title, and the trophy that goes with it. What happens when the mistake involves a busy road and a truck, or some such?

Edited November 30, 2006 by Erny

[FreyaJade]

TDS no longer has access

[Erny]

I didn't get to those posts (re: no more OP) before I posted. Thanks for bringing it to the forefront, FJ.

[kamuzz]

she said she used to have a gsd and had to have him pts because he pulled really hard on the prong and ended up with a collapsed oesophagus.

So did everyone agree this is not a likely occurrence? (Think we got a bit sidetracked from the original question )

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Its not even a possible occurance..

[TigerJack]

TDS no longer has access

:p

um im sorry but i dont understand why someone would be denied acess to a public forum just because someone disagrees with you? personally im not wading into the prong debate but i thought we lived in a democracy not a fascist dictatorship. why is it a good thing that someone has been denied the right to free speech? who gave the administrators of this forum the right to terminate the membership of people who have done nothing but express an opinion? it doesnt matter what that person said, i cant believe that you think this is a good thing. someone here even has a signature that quotes volatire about the not agreeing with what someone says but respecting their right to say it!

what sort of forum is this? you accused that person of being close minded but what does denying them access say about this forum?

ETA: this is actually NOT the opinion of tigerjack but user name kylieandpossum, sorry i was logged on via someone else's computer and didnt realise....oops

Edited December 1, 2006 by TigerJack

[MonElite]

tds (along with couple of other nicknames the same person used) has repeatedly come to the forum and placed insults onto those that are pro prong.

Personal insults are not allowed on this board hence the person was removed.

[jaybeece]

um im sorry but i dont understand why someone would be denied acess to a public forum just because someone disagrees with you?

There's nothing wrong with having a different opinion, but charming little tds didn't even bother giving constructive critisicm. He/she/it went straight into insulting people, making accusations of "pro-cruelty" and neglecting to suggest alternatives that are equally as effective.

Personally I'd love to hear some (unemotional, mature, intelligent) criticism of prong collars because I think it's important to know the good and bad of any training equipment and have an open mind about it all. Getting all emotional and pissy about it ain't going to accomplish that (that's directed at tds and that other nutbag who crashed a prong thread)

[Pitbull575]

Back on the subject of prong collars,where are these collars sold? are they only available through dog trainers? also can they be used for everyday walking or better for training purposes only? Ive honestly never seen them in the big pet supply places(although they may have been sitting there waving at me) with regards to fitting,do they need to be fitted by someone with knowledge on them?

Edited December 1, 2006 by pitbull575

[Rusky]

I don't like choke chains so I would go to any lengths to prove their ability to cause trauma.

I have spoken to many vets and unless you have a dog which is subject to tracheal collapse they are safe to use. Even with a dog which may have tracheal problems like a pug or baby toy dog according to the people I spoke to it is unlikely even then to cause trauma or collapse of the trachea.

The prong collar has an even pressure around the neck so apparently even less likely to cause problems than a chain on the trachea.

The anatomy of the dog makes collapsed oesophagus from choke or prong extremely unlikely.

So I disagree with the friend of the OP that her dog had a collapsed oesophagus due to the prong. It may have had a collapsed oesophagus but the owner did not cause it directly with her collar.

Back on the subject of prong collars,where are these collars sold?

I don't think you can use them in Victoria.

[Ruffles]

Back on the subject of prong collars,where are these collars sold? are they only available through dog trainers? also can they be used for everyday walking or better for training purposes only? Ive honestly never seen them in the big pet supply places(although they may have been sitting there waving at me) with regards to fitting,do they need to be fitted by someone with knowledge on them?

Illegal in Vic unfortunately.

[Pitbull575]

Thanks for letting me know Make you wonder why if they are safer than a choker? would I be correct in assuming some scaremongering was involved in getting them banned?.. But that doesnt happen in modern day Australia does it?... Oh I love sarcasm

[arby]

Back on the subject of prong collars,where are these collars sold? are they only available through dog trainers? also can they be used for everyday walking or better for training purposes only? Ive honestly never seen them in the big pet supply places(although they may have been sitting there waving at me) with regards to fitting,do they need to be fitted by someone with knowledge on them?

K9 Force is the only one I know of that sells them. Also if you check out his website there is the whole section on fitting and using.

The whole point of a prong is to stop a dog pulling on walks etc. So its a great collar to use if you have an unruly dog. We use ours for our everyday walks. In time we will wean off it but for now while our boy is learning we use it on all our walks.

Fitting it and using it is quite easy, just need some common sense to use it.

Its a culture in Australia to think that these are some sort of torture device. Yet in so many other dog loving countries its the number one collar.

Yes they have these prongs but the collar is limited in its movement. If the dogs behave then there is no problem. If they pull too much they will get a slight pinch from the chain, pull even more and the prong puts pressure on the sensitive parts of the neck. Smart dogs would go

"if I pull it kinda hurts" so they stop pulling.

You also need to realise when to correct the dog and how to adjust the pressure on it. No point fully yanking the lead when the dog is pretty much behaving.

From my experience I have found it causes less damage and pain to the dogs I've had then the check chain, halti and even the flat collar.

In regards to the certain people that continuely get banned due to topics on here. If they had some constructive criticisms etc there would be no problems. But tds just happen to post for the very first time abusing the crap out of everyone that uses these collars. Not only that but they also insulted all show people. They made a comment that showing basically didnt involve training etc. That sort of thing is just not on here. TDS also conviniently started abusing everyone just a week after a whole thread got closed and deleted over this issue. The OP of that thread constantly comes on here with new names, new accounts and always starts the same abuse.

To me these collars will always be looked down upon by people who havent seen them in action or havent been educated about the function and proper use of them. Like myszka and myself have said in the past, we've both grown up surrounded by these collars in our home country. No one looks down on these there and most trainers use them. In time the dogs learn how to walk properly and a normal flat collar is used. None of the dogs I've met that used to have one of these used on them has any huge fear or problems due to prongs. Frankly I've seen dogs of the bull breeds, mastiff breeds, rotty's, GSD even tiny little dogs, trained on these. All I can say is that these dogs were so much different to the dogs I see here in Australia. They are very happy well adjusted dogs and theres no problems with pulling.

The prong collars arent some miracle solution but used in conjunction with other training techniques and some basic education in how dogs minds work (drives, why they pull iin the first place etc) they are a very useful training tool.

I googled prongs and found many interesting sites on the issue. This was one of them it includes a little case study on prongs vs check chains

http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

Edited December 2, 2006 by arby

[Ruffles]

Thanks for letting me know Make you wonder why if they are safer than a choker? would I be correct in assuming some scaremongering was involved in getting them banned?.. But that doesnt happen in modern day Australia does it?... Oh I love sarcasm

We're the only state in the country thats banned them as far as I know... We're on the forefront of evolution here in victoria

[Ons]

I disagree that prong collars aren't training collars. I have been using them on my two for about two months but one day just used them in their normal flat collars. Neither dog pulled, and my boy was a huge puller who I could never walk on just a flat collar. So he has been trained now to walk nicely on the lead thanks to the prong collar. I will continue to use the prong collar with him but every now and again use the flat collar.