Erny Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Oh and I've heard that people have had good results with a remote device they purchased from Dyna Direct but I can't really afford to lay out $190 on something that might not work when I can spend roughly the same and send him to Melbourne for a more "permanent" solution... IMO, debarking should be the absolutely LAST option prior to pts. I presume, Ellz, as you've been around dogs a lot, that you'd understand and know how to identify triggers and causes for this particular behaviour and what to do in an effort (albeit a BIG effort) to remove the cause. Assuming it is appropriate to do so, I'd go for the $190.00 expense in a second ditch effort to punish/deminish the behaviour (without attachment to you .... particularly necessary if "attention seeking" is diagnosed). I know $ doesn't grow on trees (boy! do I know that!), but I don't think I'd be comfortable jumping that step and going straight to cutting vocal cords as the solution. Just my 2 cents worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry's Mum Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Perry is a demon barker in the car - particularly if she thinks we are going to sheepdog school or the dog club. My brother who lives in Canada got me a husher muzzle which actually came from Australia. She wore it one day for 5 minutes and whinged constantly. I took it off and for the rest of the journey every time she looked like barking I dangled it in front of her. The next time we were in the car I dangled it again and it has really cut back on the barking. I would not leave her unattended with it but it does seem to be working. Let me know if you are interested and I will get the details of where it is made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 My parents adopted a Beagle from rescue that barked A LOT - all night long and whenever left alone during the day. After numerous complaints from council and no sleep for us, they tried an electric no bark collar which worked quite well. At work we also have some dogs which bark excessively. What we have found sometimes works is a gentle leader (depending on the dog) - the hushers look good too. I have seen some on dogs at agility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 24, 2006 Author Share Posted November 24, 2006 Oh and I've heard that people have had good results with a remote device they purchased from Dyna Direct but I can't really afford to lay out $190 on something that might not work when I can spend roughly the same and send him to Melbourne for a more "permanent" solution... IMO, debarking should be the absolutely LAST option prior to pts. I presume, Ellz, as you've been around dogs a lot, that you'd understand and know how to identify triggers and causes for this particular behaviour and what to do in an effort (albeit a BIG effort) to remove the cause. Assuming it is appropriate to do so, I'd go for the $190.00 expense in a second ditch effort to punish/deminish the behaviour (without attachment to you .... particularly necessary if "attention seeking" is diagnosed). I know $ doesn't grow on trees (boy! do I know that!), but I don't think I'd be comfortable jumping that step and going straight to cutting vocal cords as the solution. Just my 2 cents worth. Input is appreciated but IMO the remote device probably wouldn't work due to the layout of my house/backyard and the fact that there ARE no particular triggers or causes for the barking and no one area in the backyard where he concentrates the attention. It is a constant thing. It doesn't NEED a trigger, he just barks constantly. He runs around the backyard barking happily. It is pointless staying outside with him to react to the barking immediately because when I am out there he doesn't do it. But before anybody says that he obviously wants my company...if I bring him inside with me, all he does is carries on to get back OUTSIDE. And I simply cannot spend all day outside with him. That isn't practical. I truly don't think it is attention seeking. If that were the case, then being inside with me would be satisfactory and it isn't or he'd not be carrying on to get back out again. And of course, I have tried to not reward or respond (negative attention) but that doesn't work either. I don't think it is fair to lock him up all of the time inside or to use his trolley or crate as punishment so I have resisted doing that until now. I would also rather not resort to building a pen for him because I do feel that the kennel setup that he was in for the 4 months has contributed majorly to the problem. It is truly frustrating because I've never had to deal with a problem barker like this before. And if he does keep barking like he does, the next step WILL be euthanasia because I will have the council on my doorstep for the noise so debarking in my eyes is preferable to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaywoman68 Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 That's horrible ellz Now hearing about your dog makes any dog sound better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 24, 2006 Author Share Posted November 24, 2006 His mother is a bit of a yapper too but she at least shuts up when you tell her to and doesn't just wander around the back yard barking. She's more likely to bark AT something or for a reason. And his bark isn't even a real bark, it's a kind of tuneless chortle which is incredibly annoying. It is frustrating and annoying (to say the least). I just wish I were like my bogon neighbours who obviously don't hear their OWN dogs bark and then I could learn to ignore him, but it isn't in my nature to let them bark for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusky Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 what happens when he is inside? does he still bark then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 25, 2006 Author Share Posted November 25, 2006 Yes, some of the time, so I use the "voice of doG" (spray bottle) to shut him up. Sometimes he is content to just wander around with me. Sometimes he'll take himself into his trolley. But most of the time, he's carrying on at the back door to get back outside. So when I do open the door, he races out....barking as he goes!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 (edited) Input is appreciated but IMO the remote device probably wouldn't work due to the layout of my house/backyard and the fact that there ARE no particular triggers or causes for the barking ... IF this is the case, Ellz, then I'd say he's a perfect candidate for the e-collar (I'm assuming he's a reasonably confident dog in temperament). The good thing about a Remote Trainer is that you don't have to be outside with the dog. If the dog barks for no good reason, you can remotely operate the stimulation. Or, of course, you could try an anti-bark e-collar .... again I speak without having seen the dog myself and am relying wholly and soley on your own description, interpretation and observations Ellz. If the e-collar does prove successful, you've saved your dog from the stress of surgery. What do dogs think/feel about not having a voice they can function with normally? I don't know. Nor do I believe anyone could know. I expect if we could ask them they'd suggest it is a better option than being pts, but I would imagine they'd rather a less stressful and invasive procedure if they could avoid it. All we can do is everything in our power to give them an opportunity to learn the more acceptable behaviour before we take drastic measures into our own hands. ETA: Of course, you'd know to grab every opportunity you can (on a fairly frequent basis in these early days) to praise and reward the dog when he is being quiet. Edited November 25, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 25, 2006 Author Share Posted November 25, 2006 Well, he is confident at home and with people he knows but he has been battling show ring issues with being approached and/or handled by strangers so I'm not sure how external measures would affect him. To be honest, I've even been delaying having him microchipped because I am concerned that it will have an adverse affect if a stranger hurts him instead of treating him (have been doing the praise and treat bit with complete strangers to overcome his shyness and of course ignoring silliness so as to avoid giving him negative reinforcement). And yes, I've been rewarding him for the quiet times. For example, he has been outside now for about 20 minutes without barking so I've just given him a nice bone to chew on. Three reasons...firstly to reward the good behaviour, secondly so that he gets the idea that if he's quiet he gets something nice and lastly because when he's chewing, the little horror can't bark!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 (edited) Well, he is confident at home and with people he knows .... If that's the case, then it may still be that he remains a suitable candidate for the RT/e-collar. ... but he has been battling show ring issues with being approached and/or handled by strangers so I'm not sure how external measures would affect him. To be honest, I've even been delaying having him microchipped because I am concerned that it will have an adverse affect if a stranger hurts him instead of treating him (have been doing the praise and treat bit with complete strangers to overcome his shyness and of course ignoring silliness so as to avoid giving him negative reinforcement). If you believe/feel having him microchipped is going to have an adverse affect in your behavioural modification treatment program with him, then I'd probably be even more warey of the stresses that will be involved in relation to the process of surgery, anaesthesia and surgery recovery at the Vets. I would still continue to suggest that "de-barking" shouldn't be a step to be decided on until ALL other efforts have been properly trialled to determine as to whether this dog's barking behaviour can be managed to a more acceptable level. What sort of exercise and mental stimulation is the dog provided with and what training methods are applied? Edited November 25, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Oh - something else to query ..... how long has this dog been back with you? And what level of obedience training has it reached (are you furthering)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 25, 2006 Author Share Posted November 25, 2006 He is walked approximately 3km night and morning as far as exercise goes, as well as free running in the backyard (larger suburban backyard 854m2) with 3 other dogs. Mental stimulation...heaps...I have two active children aged 8 and 7. Ball games, dress-ups, etc etc. Two indoor cats to chase. Rides in the car with me. "Helping" me with household duties during the day. So really, mental stimulation isn't an issue. It isn't like he is locked in a small backyard for 9 hours per day with no company barking his head off because he is bored out of his scone. Obedience training - none and no intention to further it. Not enough hours in the day. He gets bait training and lead training when we're doing our walks. He gets groomed at least once per day but is on the grooming table at multiple times during the day to check for grass seeds, burrs etc. I bred him. He was born in June 2005. In April 2006 he went to Brisbane. He returned to me in August. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 First one was a Bark Stop, 2nd one I can't remember and I've lost the box. I can't use Citronella because I'm allergic to it so a citronella collar is a bit out of the question too. Oh and I've heard that people have had good results with a remote device they purchased from Dyna Direct but I can't really afford to lay out $190 on something that might not work when I can spend roughly the same and send him to Melbourne for a more "permanent" solution...IYKWIM. Seriously, he's a menace! Innotek have a 30 day guarantee on all their products, if that helps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 25, 2006 Author Share Posted November 25, 2006 Thanks for that Kamuzz. I see they also have a rental/try-before-you-buy program too. Will investigate further! Erny, you asked before about triggers. He doesn't seem to need any. It is a quiet, calm night here in Bogonvillea. I've just been putting some washing on the clothesline and there is nobody around. No wind, no birds, nobody walking on the streets. The dog next door is nowhere to be seen. The people on the other side haven't been seen since their explosive start to the day this morning. I have just walked up the back steps and come inside and was standing watching Michael. He was laying on his belly on the ground (frog-dogging) with his snood on....BARKING....at NOTHING!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryPotter Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Hi, Can I just mention that I once lived next door to a Cocker Spaniel that had been debarked (I'm in Qld). That dog still barked all day - a horrible wheezing kind of bark. Drove everyone insane and we were so glad when we finally moved not to have to listen to it. He sounded just like he had laryngitis.. some barks would come out in a high pitches squeak, other times it sounded like he was coughing up a hairball. Occasionally barely any sound came out at all. I'm not sure if this dog "learnt" how to be heard.. or the debarking was not done properly ..or if this is a very rare case. So just be aware your dog may still be able to make his bark heard. Best of luck what ever you decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I'm not sure if this dog "learnt" how to be heard.. or the debarking was not done properly ..or if this is a very rare case. So just be aware your dog may still be able to make his bark heard. Good and valid point to raise, HP. In fact you describe very well the type of 'sound' most de-barked dogs make once the surgery and healing is complete. De-barking is not a total eradication of the barking noise. It simply reduces the decibles, but I agree ... it can be almost just as annoying. In addition, it is possible for vocal cords to grow back over and the dog's bark can return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 25, 2006 Author Share Posted November 25, 2006 A lot depends upon the method of surgery and how experienced the vet is performing it. Friends of mine have a vet who is very experienced and has done many dogs with great success. I'm certainly not leaping into it but I will not hesitate to do it should everything else fail. I'd rather have Michael debarked than pts, I'm sure you can all understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 He was laying on his belly on the ground (frog-dogging) with his snood on....BARKING....at NOTHING!!!! :D ..... sorry, but your "frog-dogging" description makes me smile. It does sound extreme, Ellz. I admit. And sorry for all the questions - they need to be asked and asked over given we don't get to see (and hear ) first hand what this dog is like. In fact, your description above makes me wonder about OCD . Of course, for that to be determined, it would need much more than simply conversation over the net. Now ........ this IS A LONGSHOT (by a mile plus some). But I wonder how he would be with a DAP Diffuser. Naturally, he'd need to be inside for this .... but I just wonder. Of course, I'm not suggesting that would cure the whole problem, but if he did improve in its presence, it could hint as to whether this barking was based in anxiety. (If he doesn't improve, then it proves nothing either way.) I'm also wondering (yep ..... ANOTHER - and even bigger - LONGSHOT) about diet and whether this might be having an affect (did you mention diet earlier? sorry if you have ... I might have forgotten). Do you see where I'm going with this? Are we dealing with anxiety at some level here? Also, is this dog more hyper than what you've been used to? (IE Would you consider his level of activity to be abnormal in comparison with others of his litter/breeding.) Yep - forever the behaviourist, that's me. I like to try to cover all possible bases. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 I'm certainly not leaping into it but I will not hesitate to do it should everything else fail. I'd rather have Michael debarked than pts, I'm sure you can all understand. On the basis of "everything else failing", then yes. I agree with you and fully understand, Ellz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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