Types Of Sheep-working Dogs

[kylieandpossum]

decided to start a new topic because we kind of overtook that last one, sorry kavik we're naughty i know

anyway now we are talking about different kinds of sheep herding dogs and whether you can 'generalise' working traits across 'breeds' and what it takes to get different types to do different things.

i said i would post some pix of my koolie, who i do yard dog work with, and who is a little different to kelpies.

ive got a closeup of her:

and here she is taking on a sheeps head which she avoided when younger but is ok with now:

and here she is stepping nicely, rather than going round and round in circles (after much training!)

i know there are lurkers out there who have pix too...or i can dob you in

[MrsD]

I did see someone in the other thread mention that BC's are usually more paddock dogs & kelpies are usually more yard dogs. From personal experience, up here in Qld (particularly in SW Qld where it gets extremely hot), there are very few BC's working, both yard & paddock dogs are usually kelpies.

May be completely different in Victoria though .

ET fix the errant typing of my "e" & "m" keys!

Edited November 22, 2006 by MrsD

[kylieandpossum]

I did see someone in the other thread mention that BC's are usually more paddock dogs & kelpies are usually more yard dogs. From personal experience, up here in Qld (particularly in SW Qld where it gets extremely hot), there are very few BC's working, both yard & paddock dogs are usually kelpies.

May be completely different in Victoria though .

ET fix the errant typing of my "e" & "m" keys!

yes that must be a factor...a lot of the trialling borders i have seen down here are the short coat ones.

here are some more pix!

this is chance, the other koolie i know. he has an ANKC herding title and is working on yard trialling

here are possum's best friends cobber: and kobe:

they are both noonbarra kelpies and like chalk and cheese, but really lovely workers

ive run out of room but have more, will do another post

Edited November 22, 2006 by kylieandpossum

[Mooper]

Jack works really well

When he settles, after an initial barking frenzy, he can at least look like he knows what he's doing. His headless handler is not fooled, however.

He's definitely better in a small yard than in a paddock setting at this early stage. And several instructors have independently said they could do with a yard dog that uses its voice as much as he does. At Jim Luce's old place at Bungonia, all Jack did was bark a couple of times and the sheep all moved off together. At Bungendore the last time we went, he did the same thing and the cheeky woolies penned themselves!

I say this in jest, because I'd rather he only used his voice to work, not to give me the finger ... it stresses me and the sheep.

[kylieandpossum]

this is diesal, cobbers housemate, who is a kelpie/bc cross and really does have the best traits of both:

here is poss and kobe caught being naughty:

and another gratuitous pic of poss:

we put all our herding pix on my husbands flickr too, here is the link

trents flickr

there are pix of other stuff up there too

enough from me now

[kylieandpossum]

I say this in jest, because I'd rather he only used his voice to work, not to give me the finger ... it stresses me and the sheep.

:D

its that damn stubborn cattle dog thing (he does have some of that in him doesnt he?). jem is sticking with agility and flyball! altho i read last night that there are actually cattle dog trials and trents eyes went all kind of funny

Edited November 22, 2006 by kylieandpossum

[Mooper]

its that damn stubborn cattle dog thing (he does have some of that in him doesnt he?)

Yep. Plus a few other breeds for good measure (maybe GSD, maybe kelpie, maybe ridgeback, maybe some collie...), all of which are meant to be intelligent ... !

I get so jealous of the others at herding, who often say "oh, my other dog does that so I never bring him/her herding"

I only have one dog to choose from!! And a husband who consistently says no to the thought of a second. Especially when I start talking about getting a working-bred pup for sheepherding

[MrsD]

I did see someone in the other thread mention that BC's are usually more paddock dogs & kelpies are usually more yard dogs. From personal experience, up here in Qld (particularly in SW Qld where it gets extremely hot), there are very few BC's working, both yard & paddock dogs are usually kelpies.

May be completely different in Victoria though .

ET fix the errant typing of my "e" & "m" keys!

yes that must be a factor...a lot of the trialling borders i have seen down here are the short coat ones.

Yep you would think that the short coats would be OK up here but there are very very few out there (well there were when I lived out there 20 years ago), mostly all kelpies & the owners always categorised them into yard or paddock dogs - there were some that could do both well (our next door neighbours black kelpie was one like that) but most had one or the other that they were much better at.

Ours were mainly yard dogs but we did have one fabulous little black bitch (father was the next door neighbours dog I mentioned above) who was looking very promising as both but she died .

[MrsD]

Mooper, is it Jack in that photo of him sitting at the gate gazing at the sheep across the yard, taken from behind him? I love that pic!

[kylieandpossum]

its that damn stubborn cattle dog thing (he does have some of that in him doesnt he?)

Yep. Plus a few other breeds for good measure (maybe GSD, maybe kelpie, maybe ridgeback, maybe some collie...), all of which are meant to be intelligent ... !

I get so jealous of the others at herding, who often say "oh, my other dog does that so I never bring him/her herding"

I only have one dog to choose from!! And a husband who consistently says no to the thought of a second. Especially when I start talking about getting a working-bred pup for sheepherding

teehee - trent was contemplating a cocker spaniel or some other little lap dog (having had enough of the working dog thing). now that he has given up on herding with jem i think he may be re-assessing his position on that. we came home on the weekend and he said he was jealous of all of us with our herding dogs. i write this looking at a wall covered in agility and flyball ribbons that miss possum (ie, me) will never have!

but its the process thats the thing. and how much does jack love it?! thats the important part i reckon :D

[kylieandpossum]

Yep you would think that the short coats would be OK up here but there are very very few out there (well there were when I lived out there 20 years ago), mostly all kelpies & the owners always categorised them into yard or paddock dogs - there were some that could do both well (our next door neighbours black kelpie was one like that) but most had one or the other that they were much better at.

Ours were mainly yard dogs but we did have one fabulous little black bitch (father was the next door neighbours dog I mentioned above) who was looking very promising as both but she died .

so you show shelties and have working kelpies?

and heres a spanner in the work, is there a difference between colours and working ability! im being a bit silly cos my instructor says he hates red dogs - i wonder if theres anything in it. i know the sheep respond different to diesal cos shes all black.

[Mooper]

From the Working Dog video, Mrs D? The one and only.

Here is the progression from the gate-staring dawg... spot Possum's nose in the last pic! Jack has more stamina now that he's a lean, mean 29kg instead of a porky 32kg.

[a

tachment=58998:attachment]

Edited November 22, 2006 by Mooper

[Mooper]

but its the process thats the thing. and how much does jack love it?! thats the important part i reckon

He does, but he works so close to the sheep, makes so much noise, and takes them on a cross-country running course around the paddock ... I worry for the well-being of the sheep. He would never intentionally hurt them, but it certainly wears them out.

If anyone has any fat sheep needing a bit of exercise, we're set

Until then, I'm working on calming him and getting some sort of stop on him. As well as sticking with a small yard when we return in the cooler weather.

[MrsD]

so you show shelties and have working kelpies?

and heres a spanner in the work, is there a difference between colours and working ability! im being a bit silly cos my instructor says he hates red dogs - i wonder if theres anything in it. i know the sheep respond different to diesal cos shes all black.

I have a sheltie now, have shown him a bit as a baby but mainly interested in obedience & "working" stuff . Had working kelpies many years ago when I lived on a property, we had 83,000 acres, about 6,000 sheep & around 200 head of cattle. A few different working dogs, BCxKelpie that was good in the yards but useless at anything else & couldnt back to save her life , little red kelpie bitch who was a fabulous yard dog, a red & tan kelpie dog who was also great in the yard & the black bitch (red bitches & next door neighbours black dogs puppy) who was promising as both but who died .

I dunno about the colours, our neighbours & ourselves had all colours & they were all individual .

Mooper - that's the one, the 1st pic - love it!

[jesomil]

OMG this topic has already got 13 replies and i havent even seen it!!!!

Will go and read now................

[jesomil]

i said i would post some pix of my koolie, who i do yard dog work with, and who is a little different to kelpies.

How is the way your dog works different to a Kelpie? Does it have less eye or do you mean because it is more of a full on type dog?

Mooper, I think dogs like yours need to stay only in the round yard until you have a good level of control on them otherwise the sheep can get a bit distressed. Sounds like he has a lot of fun though.

K&P - i havent seen a Koolie like possum before. I have only seen the merles. How is your dog different from a border as they look very similar? Was she from a breeder? Maybe i should go look up some koolie websites to learn more.

[Mooper]

Mooper, I think dogs like yours need to stay only in the round yard until you have a good level of control on them otherwise the sheep can get a bit distressed. Sounds like he has a lot of fun though.

Me too

It just happened that our last sheepherding experience in October was at the Bungendore showgrounds where, at that time, larger yards were the only available space. Since then, the club has invested in some barricades to form a smaller round yard for newbies and perpetual newbies (ie us!).

There needs to be an "if" in there somewhere, too. It may just be that Jack is too old, too keen to chase or whatever to get the hang of it, in which case we'll retire and I'll learn from the sidelines. It's not fair on the sheep.

[kylieandpossum]

How is the way your dog works different to a Kelpie? Does it have less eye or do you mean because it is more of a full on type dog?

in both ways i think. she knew how to keep the sheep together straight away, but she did so forcefully, as if she were chasing them. obviously kelpies also do this but she was just whizzing around barking (plenty of bark!). it only took one or two sessions of blocking to get her to work in the arc behind them. i think it is an eye thing. she tends to work off the shoulder of the sheep rather than straight onto the head, and she doesnt 'naturally' stalk them, in that slow, head down, one foot at a time way that some kelpies have. lets just say there will be no three sheep work with this dog!

Mooper, I think dogs like yours need to stay only in the round yard until you have a good level of control on them otherwise the sheep can get a bit distressed. Sounds like he has a lot of fun though.

i would second this only because of my own experience with possum. we had to have complete control in the small yard before we tried the bigger one or the paddock and if i dont set the pace, i get stressed out and anxious, and that ups her energy and then ive lost the sheep! every so often after working outside we go back in the small yard just to reinforce things.

K&P - i havent seen a Koolie like possum before. I have only seen the merles. How is your dog different from a border as they look very similar? Was she from a breeder? Maybe i should go look up some koolie websites to learn more.

she is a little unusual but theoretically speaking, koolies can be short or long coated and solid or merle. her quote is a LOT shorter than a border, its rough rather than long. she has a long fan tail rather than a pointed one. she has merle skin and freckles across her nose and feet. in her litter there was one red merle, two traditional blue merles, her and a black and white solid colour, so they have lots of recessive genes that get thrown up. her mother and father were both short coats, one red and one blue merle, and i took her i think because she was different. oh and she has very light coloured eyes, greeny yellow. she is very fine bodied and much smaller than a BC.

koolie breeding is a very strange thing. the breeders are even stranger (in a nice way of course ) some of them are very busy trying to get a breed standard based on DNA tests etc but i dont see that happening anytime soon. she was from a breeder who apparently breeds for farmers wanting slightly bigger koolies to work cattle, some other koolie people tell me shes a 'bad breeder' but she breeds working koolies and i had met a dog from there that does agility that i really liked and poss has the same grandfather and they are quite similar dogs. there is some in-fighting among koolie breeders over the true koolie standard but i really dont buy into it, i knew it wasnt a recognised breed but is certainly a distinct type.

check out this story

http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/2000/arch...g_breeds?p=1603

and also this site

http://www.koolie-tjukurpa-kennels.0catch.com/

although i really take everything koolie breeders say with a grain of salt!

[Kavik]

I like the Koolies. Every time I go to the Pet and Animal Expo I go to their stall and go I like the smaller, finer boned type rather than the heavier type (just personal preference) and the shorter coats. I like the darker merles. They had a rescue needing a home this year at the expo and she was gorgeous

[jesomil]

I see now. Thanks for all the info.

she was from a breeder who apparently breeds for farmers wanting slightly bigger koolies to work cattle,

This could be why your dog has the working traits that it does. Very interesting.

I like the look of Koolies too. The colours have always fascinated me.