Desexing

[poodlefan]

Lillysmum:

My position is that unless you're a registered breeder, there is NO reason to keep a sexually entire companion dog, so why on earth do it? I've had dogs for close to 40 yrs, each and every one of them was desexed as soon as practical and under VET advice as to the timing of the surgery.

No dog I own will be desexed before the age of 14 months because the best veterinary advice I can find says that from a physical development point of view, earlier desexing is detrimental. If I choose to own and show a registered pedigreed dog and to keep it entire (although I am not a registered breeder) then why shouldn't I?

I think the numbers of unwanted dogs that die in pounds is a tragedy. However, few of them are purebreds, few of them are pups and the most common reason they are surrendered is due to "behavioural difficulties" which is a easy way for people to say they haven't chosen and trained their dog well. Perhaps you need to spend a bit more time researching WHY dogs end up in pounds before concluding that desexing will solve the problem.

It's precisely the kind of "desex em all" dogma you espouse in this thread Lillysmum that will see responsible caring dog owners forced into a corner with regard to whether or not to desex their dogs. This is what is being proposed in Qld right now. If you think it will solve the problem of unwanted dogs, then I suggest you need to do more research.

Edited November 23, 2006 by poodlefan

[karen135]

Two - except that they were both kept indoors through their seasons. So, the more accurate answer to your question would be zero, b/c I knew enough to NOT leave them "in [my] own yard." It's just that too many people think it's perfectly fine to leave a bitch in season in the yard...which isn't advisable IMO.

Does that help?

Hmm, I gathered from the way you speak of the behaviour of entire dogs, that you must be a breeder of many years experience, who has great knowledge and insight into the behaviour of entire dogs of both sexes.

Guess I was wrong.

For the record, my entire bitches get frisky when in season, but have never tried to escape or dig their way out. Neither have I have had male dogs attempting or succeeding in scaling my fences. And, I live in suburbia.

It only takes a bit of common sense to manage a bitch in season, and the people who come to this forum seeking information do not deserve to beaten around the head with what YOU (LM) believe to be the right thing for them to do.

Please let them read and learn, and then make their own decisions, rather than coming at everybody with a "desex immediately" attitude.

No, I suppose my experience in dog rescue doesn't cut it for you, eh? I don't suppose you're confronted daily by the numbers of unwanted dogs and pups in the pounds and shelters that end up dead and at least some of these were because someone didn't manage their entire bitch or dog appropriately. When people ask the question here about desexing, and when they indicate that the advice they have conflicts with what they already know, I conclude from that limited information that they're looking for an 'average person' answer, rather than an answer aimed at a registered breeder, or someone that has a thorough knowledge of dog management including the management of entire animals.

I may not have been involved in rescue and foster for a long time - which is true - but being confronted by other people's cast-offs does entitle me to become angry and sad that there are so many thoughtless people in our society that either can't or won't manage their dog/s appropriately, and therefore they're contributing to the unwanted dog problem due to their lack of action.

When someone asks for opinions about desexing, I give mine. My position is that unless you're a registered breeder, there is NO reason to keep a sexually entire companion dog, so why on earth do it? I've had dogs for close to 40 yrs, each and every one of them was desexed as soon as practical and under VET advice as to the timing of the surgery. The advice used to be "wait for a season before spey" but that's out-of-date according to MANY vets today. Sure, there are still some that advocate such a position, but they're becoming fewer and further between. IMO that's a good thing.

I don't believe in desex immediately IF the owner is responsible. But if every owner was responsible, how does that explain the large number of dumped and straying dogs that are impounded every single day? Hmmmm...can't be just by chance now, can it?

I would rather see people desex their dogs young than be picking up the pieces of yet another accidental litter. There's nothing worse than seeing dogs on death row and knowing you can't possibly help them and that they WILL DIE today or tomorrow. Young, healthy beautiful dogs that don't deserve to die. Yet someone was "responsible" for their existence in this world at some point.

I respect registered breeders and the work they do to improve their chosen breeds. But the average dog owner, the one that waits to desex b/c they haven't gotten around to it yet, or b/c they don't think it's that important, or b/c they're following well-meaning but misleading advice (for their situation) is the one that I aim my responses towards b/c I know there are LOTS of visitors to this forum and not all of them are responsible, well-informed, well-educated dog owners.

well excuse me but yes i have done dog fostering and yes i have seen many unwanted dogs but i am not stuppied enough to allow any of my past female dogs or this one to have gone near other dogs when i season i DO NOT even take them out of the house they are ONLY allowed in the garden with suppervision so that they CAN NOT escape i am only trying to do the best by my dog and now i have people jumping down my throat

i only asked as all our other dogs have had to have a season first or the vet WOUKLD NOT spey them next time i wont bother to ask the opinion of people i know may know a bit more than my self i dont claim to know all and never will

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Didn't you just read what I said in regards to the 'average' person vs the more responsible owner?

Gee, the simple fact remains that for companion dogs (which make up the vast majority of owned dogs in Australia as far as I can tell), it's far safer to desex than not...and again, it is just my opinion and my experience (again, I think I stated that). But misrepresent what I've said if it helps you.

Do you consider yourself to be a responsible dog owner? Do you consider yourself a well-informed and well-educated one? Then what I've said doesn't apply to you, again I think I stated that.

I also said I was aiming my response to the average owner that may not have much of an idea about when to desex or even why to desex.

And yes, many poundies are crossbred dogs, but they have to have come from two sexually entire animals and in many cases, the parent animals are each a purebred dog - in many other cases, at least one parent is a purebred animal. But again, don't let that sway anyone's opinion for or against desexing companion dogs, eh?

I believe that companion dogs should be desexed. I believe that after vet advice, it is safer to spey a bitch BEFORE her first season rather than AFTER it. If I have the choice, it's done before...but as I adopt RESCUE dogs, sometimes that isn't possible. And as I also rescue when I have the space, in the majority of cases the bitches are entire when they are impounded - so does that perhaps help you to understand that the less responsible owners are less inclined to have their animals desexed?

Do you keep a show dog or a companion dog? Does the OP keep a show dog or a companion dog b/c I thought they were referring to a companion dog...please correct me if I'm wrong.

BTW - are you involved in rescue PF? Most groups can always use more foster carers and volunteers for all sorts of events - there are far too many dogs that STILL don't make it out alive, it saddens me as much as it angers me!

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

well excuse me but yes i have done dog fostering and yes i have seen many unwanted dogs but i am not stuppied enough to allow any of my past female dogs or this one to have gone near other dogs when i season i DO NOT even take them out of the house they are ONLY allowed in the garden with suppervision so that they CAN NOT escape i am only trying to do the best by my dog and now i have people jumping down my throat

i only asked as all our other dogs have had to have a season first or the vet WOUKLD NOT spey them next time i wont bother to ask the opinion of people i know may know a bit more than my self i dont claim to know all and never will

If you're involved or have been involved in rescue then I'm very surprised you came to a public forum to ask the question you have posted here. Surely you would know that discussing the options with your trusted vet and if needed, getting a second opinion, is what works best for you and your dog? If my vet advised me to wait until after the first season before speying, I'd be asking a lot of questions of that vet...then I'd most likely find another vet to bounce the first one's ideas off.

Had you said that your bitch is housed indoors and is only allowed outside under physical restraint when in season, perhaps that information would have provided you with different responses. But I responded based on what was posted...I know my sixth sense is good, but it's not perfect! And I also post responses that keep in mind other users (guests esp) that may not know very much about dogs but are here to learn, and if my response was to keep a bitch entire for a given time period after she was capable of reproducing, I wonder how many other people would take that to mean "never get her desexed"? I'd say a fair few of them based on the responses my opinion has generated...people don't read things properly or absorb the information adequately!

[poodlefan]

Lillysmum:

Do you keep a show dog or a companion dog? Does the OP keep a show dog or a companion dog b/c I thought they were referring to a companion dog...please correct me if I'm wrong.

All my dogs are companion dogs. First and foremost. All of them are now desexed. One of them was a show dog but is no longer. Next dog will be a show dog but a companion dog before anything else.

BTW - are you involved in rescue PF? Most groups can always use more foster carers and volunteers for all sorts of events - there are far too many dogs that STILL don't make it out alive, it saddens me as much as it angers me!

If you are asking do I or would I foster? No. I have neither the time, nor the types of dogs who handle frequent newcomers to my house. I spend too much time training and trialling my own dogs to do justice to a foster. I would also not willingly take a dog from a pound environment straight into my home due to concerns about my own dogs health and welfare. I don't have a kennel set up that would allow me to quarantine dogs until I knew more about their health and temperament.

If you are asking do I regularly donate goods and money and assist where I can with grooming and referrals... of course I do. I support a couple of rescuers here on DOL and any poodle in need I learn of . I also try to educate myself on all dog related issues, including rescue.

ETA - I have also done obedience and agility demonstrations at pound/RSPCA and other events to promote the importance and joy of having a well trained dog.

Edited November 23, 2006 by poodlefan

[karen135]

physical restraint i did NOT say why would i restrain a puppy thats is just not on i would never restrain one of my dogs i said suppervision as u go outside and play with them with the dog u watch from the window NEVER restrained i will not even tie my dog outside a shop i asked opinon as i have never used this vet before heard of this case of speying different contries have different views on speying

[Hathor]

here here ;) Lillysmum I'm with you

It only takes a bit of common sense to manage a bitch in season

Yes those on here with common sense would have no problem. However the average jo blow is either ignorant or just not thinking. I've had morons with bitches right smack bang in the receptive part of their season, bring their bitch into the clinic for something, off lead! Meanwhile an entire male is sitting with it's owner in the waiting room

The amount of people who call up, "my bitch went missing and she's in season..."

I had one IDIOT owner who had a beautiful staffy bitch. She was hit by a car. Her pelvis was smashed, she had surgery and was with us for some time. We told this guy that she needed to be desexed once fully recovered, as the accident would make it impossible for her to give birth. What does the moron do - takes her camping with his mates dog while she's in season. He rang up to find out about cheap rates for desexing, cause of course they had mated.

I was so wild, I could barely speak to him.

[Hathor]

OK, now back to the question, seeing I went off on a total tangent.

I would desex BEFORE the first season. My girls were done at around 5 months of age. For large breed dogs, I would say the sooner the better. Large bitch speys can take a long time, esp if they are fat (nothing better that an adult bitch chubby lab)

If you were thinking about leaving the ovaries, or using hormonal treatment, I would tread VERY carefully. In every decision there are pros and cons. However, removing everything is the way to go. I've seen too many "oopsy's", and too many well meaning owners. Yes your dog may not be able to escape, but if an entire male ends up in the yard...

Lillysmum has seen the end result when things go bad, and I don't blame her for the "desex now" aproach. Hell, when I see some of the morons who come into the clinic I feel like desexing them, so that they can't go fourth and pass on those "excellent" genes.

Classic example: "My dog was hit by a car"

me " Just now?

"No last week. She's limping, do you think we need to come down?"

nah man (would you not seek medical advice if you were hit by a car?) Darwin awards here we come

[Livi]

I've had an entire bitch and 6' fencing was always adequate to keep her safe during seasons. I left her in the yard when I went out or to work and never had an issue.

I'm very pro-desexing and personally chose to desex my own around 6mths and rescue kittens/pup before rehoming but the OP sounds to be very responsible and understands how to manage a bitch in season so if she is willing to take the proper care and responsibility and is more comfortable waiting a little longer to desex it shouldn't be an issue.

Pounds and Rescue groups simply can't afford to take the risk of sending out entire animals to new homes and it doesn't agree with the message and ethics rescue promote but on the other hand I know or know of many people with entire animals (breeders and show people) who are able to manage their entire animals without incident (and have done for many many years), it isn't difficult it just requires people to be responsible.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

physical restraint i did NOT say why would i restrain a puppy thats is just not on i would never restrain one of my dogs i said suppervision as u go outside and play with them with the dog u watch from the window NEVER restrained i will not even tie my dog outside a shop i asked opinon as i have never used this vet before heard of this case of speying different contries have different views on speying

"Physical restraint" means having the animal on a lead fastened to a properly fitting collar or harness. That's how I manage a bitch in season when it has happened to an animal in my care. In doing this, it's much harder for her to escape than if I just let her outside. "Watching" from a window, IMO isn't going to prevent a bitch from jumping a fence if she's motivated enough to do that. Having said that, if it works for you and the particular dog in question, that's great.

I'm hardly going to do anything that's potentially cruel to a dog...nor do I make such suggestions to others.

I also use crates as needed to confine a dog that's just come into care...for transporting in the car...for recovery from surgery...again, that's not a practice I see as being cruel to the dog and is in common usage in many parts of the world including Australia. If I wasn't able to crate sometimes, I couldn't rescue certain types of dogs at all.

[Skipy]

For large breed dogs, I would say the sooner the better. Large bitch speys can take a long time, esp if they are fat (nothing better that an adult bitch chubby lab)

So is this because its easier for a vet?

If you were thinking about leaving the ovaries, or using hormonal treatment, I would tread VERY carefully. In every decision there are pros and cons. However, removing everything is the way to go.

What would be the drawbacks of leaving ovaries ie. hormones intact?

Edited November 23, 2006 by Skipy

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I've had an entire bitch and 6' fencing was always adequate to keep her safe during seasons. I left her in the yard when I went out or to work and never had an issue.

I'm very pro-desexing and personally chose to desex my own around 6mths and rescue kittens/pup before rehoming but the OP sounds to be very responsible and understands how to manage a bitch in season so if she is willing to take the proper care and responsibility and is more comfortable waiting a little longer to desex it shouldn't be an issue.

Pounds and Rescue groups simply can't afford to take the risk of sending out entire animals to new homes and it doesn't agree with the message and ethics rescue promote but on the other hand I know or know of many people with entire animals (breeders and show people) who are able to manage their entire animals without incident (and have done for many many years), it isn't difficult it just requires people to be responsible.

And the point is that this is a public forum, with many guests that aren't necessarily "responsible" enough to manage an entire animal in an appropriate way. Breeders and show people are generally what I would consider "responsible" but the 'average person with a dog' isn't a breeder or showie and hasn't got that level of expertise and knowledge, do they?

My responses are directed at the 'average person with a dog' rather than a breeder or showie b/c as I said, most of the breeders and showies have sufficient knowledge...whereas the OP didn't identify herself as a breeder, showie, rescuer, or 'average person with a dog' so I suppose my responses were shaped accordingly. If every person with a dog is responsible for that dog, then I can't understand why there are so many dogs and pups in pounds and shelters and rescues - can anyone please explain how that happens?

And can anyone also explain why the vast majority of impoundees are also sexually entire? Of the dogs that I've fostered, exactly NONE were already desexed (prior to coming into care). To put it another way, each foster dog I've had was sexually entire and it was up to the rescue group to arrange for desexing before the dog was re-homed.

I wonder if someone could explain that as well?

If it wasn't for these animals being impounded, then I have little doubt that each of them would have reproduced at least once. A bitch in season, "at large" (wandering the streets without a human), I doubt it would take long for an entire male (or several) to mate with her.

We also seem to have a number of bitches coming into care already pregnant - many shelters that rehome directly also have this experience. In some cases of early pregnancy, the bitch is speyed, but in cases where it's too advanced, the bitch whelps and then the foster carer has a litter of pups AND a bitch to look after. I guess these cases aren't planned matings or pregnancies, or the owner would be at the pound in a flash to claim their dog. A pregnant bitch, where the mating was planned and the litter desirable, isn't going to be left languishing in a pound cage, is she?

edit for typo

Edited November 23, 2006 by lillysmum

[Skipy]

I would think that from the people that end up leaving dogs in the pound they do not care enough about them in the first place to even keep them, let alone take them to the vet... Therefore, they leave their dogs the way they are. I am sure that if you looked in their vaccination records they would all be out of date as well.

What I am saying is that there is not relationship between entire dogs as a reason for being in the pound, its that they do not do any "extra" work on their dogs in the first place, one of them being desexing......

[Livi]

I heard the lady who is the boss of the AVA (sorry can't recall her name) on the radio saying that 70-80% of council registered dogs are desexed.

Of the other 20-30% some would be owned by registered breeders/exhibitors, some by deliberate BYB's, some by people who are responsible and take due care of their entire dog but have other reasons for choosing not to desex and some by idiots.

So the 'average person with a dog' more than likely has the dog desexed or will at a time they and their vet agree is appropriate.

However MOST of the entire dogs causing overpopulation problems are also probably not registered, or microchipped, or vaccinated or treated for heartworm, or worms or fleas and no matter what is said on a dog forum these people are not suddenly going to run out and become responsible

They are not owned by 'average' people but by a sub class of people who have no respect for the law and do not behave in a responsible manner.

The only way I can see for society to clean up the animal problem is if 'average' people are better educated to buy their pets from either registered breeders or rescue, for the general public to learn that supporting BYB and Pet Shops is not a responsible thing to do.

I recently saw someone referring to buying a dog from a petshop as "rescuing" people need to understand that just because they are offering a good home to the animal that they are not doing a good thing.

[PAX]

Sunny,

The sort of people that let their dog rome and get taken to the pound or god forbid dump it would not bother to register it. Same as they wouldn't bother to have it desexed.

Most people that go to the trouble of Council registration care about their pets.

Sorry, thats what you're saying, posted before reading your whole post.....bad me.

Edited November 24, 2006 by PAX

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I would think that from the people that end up leaving dogs in the pound they do not care enough about them in the first place to even keep them, let alone take them to the vet... Therefore, they leave their dogs the way they are. I am sure that if you looked in their vaccination records they would all be out of date as well.

What I am saying is that there is not relationship between entire dogs as a reason for being in the pound, its that they do not do any "extra" work on their dogs in the first place, one of them being desexing......

That's my point. That's what we're up against here. Most people with a dog are just like you describe above, rather than just like many of us here on DOL (responsible and motivated dog owners/lovers that do the right things by their dog/s).

How else can any of us explain the HUGE numbers of unwanted dogs in our community?

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I heard the lady who is the boss of the AVA (sorry can't recall her name) on the radio saying that 70-80% of council registered dogs are desexed.

Yep, that may be true...but the vast majority of impounded dogs that end up needing rescue aren't desexed. Our rescues come from pounds run by councils/LGAs...many of these dogs are sexually entire...so I'm not sure that responsible people necessarily desex their pets nor do they necessarily register them with council. I have heard that many people that don't register their dog/s b/c they can't be bothered or b/c they don't want to pay a fee or b/c they don't want council to know how many dogs they have b/c they're over the set maximum allowed.

And if only 70-80% of council registered dogs are desexed, why isn't that figure (for pets) higher? Shouldn't it be close to 100% if these people are law-abiding and responsible dog owners?

[Skipy]

I would think that from the people that end up leaving dogs in the pound they do not care enough about them in the first place to even keep them, let alone take them to the vet... Therefore, they leave their dogs the way they are. I am sure that if you looked in their vaccination records they would all be out of date as well.

What I am saying is that there is not relationship between entire dogs as a reason for being in the pound, its that they do not do any "extra" work on their dogs in the first place, one of them being desexing......

That's my point. That's what we're up against here. Most people with a dog are just like you describe above, rather than just like many of us here on DOL (responsible and motivated dog owners/lovers that do the right things by their dog/s).

How else can any of us explain the HUGE numbers of unwanted dogs in our community?

I dont know that I necessarily agree with you. I think you might be biased a bit from the fact that you see the worst that can happen every day.... If we say that every 3rd household has at least one dog (I think these are the stats and probably more than one) and how many people in Australia vs how many dogs being PTS each year......

I hope you are wrong...... Anyhow lets assume that whoever is asking questions on DOL is probably not one of them...

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

I would think that from the people that end up leaving dogs in the pound they do not care enough about them in the first place to even keep them, let alone take them to the vet... Therefore, they leave their dogs the way they are. I am sure that if you looked in their vaccination records they would all be out of date as well.

What I am saying is that there is not relationship between entire dogs as a reason for being in the pound, its that they do not do any "extra" work on their dogs in the first place, one of them being desexing......

That's my point. That's what we're up against here. Most people with a dog are just like you describe above, rather than just like many of us here on DOL (responsible and motivated dog owners/lovers that do the right things by their dog/s).

How else can any of us explain the HUGE numbers of unwanted dogs in our community?

I dont know that I necessarily agree with you. I think you might be biased a bit from the fact that you see the worst that can happen every day.... If we say that every 3rd household has at least one dog (I think these are the stats and probably more than one) and how many people in Australia vs how many dogs being PTS each year......

I hope you are wrong...... Anyhow lets assume that whoever is asking questions on DOL is probably not one of them...

I wish I was wrong, but I'm not. Our ACT pound can house well over 50 dogs at a time and it's usually full. They're required to keep strays 8 days but can euth surrenders sooner. At the ACT shelter, the waiting list for surrenders is between 3 and 6 mths and it receives calls every day from dog owners as to how to 'get rid of' their unwanted dogs - the shelter can house approx double what the pound can house. I've seen three dogs to a cage at both places and have seen the numbers of dogs in the places continue to climb. This year has been particularly bad in this area for unwanted dogs. But it's fairly typical IMO. Then there's the other pound just over the NSW border, plus the two nearest councils further out (2 pounds) - which take fewer dogs but there again, it's rural so many dogs are likely shot by farmers protecting stock or are hit on the roads or are poisoned by fox bait.

As for the person asking the question, I think I've already said that given DOL is a public forum, we have to assume there will be a wide range of people reading here, including those that aren't very responsible for whatever reasons/s...and its to these people most precisely that my answers are directed towards. If I can get JUST ONE person to understand how important it is to desex their companion dog (pet), then that directly helps ONE DOG. And if that one person tells just one person, the message grows from there.

BTW - there are between 10-30 dogs in urgent need just in one pound in this area every week. That is dogs about to be destroyed b/c they haven't been either claimed or sold from the pound...that's where rescue hopefully steps in. It's just that we can't save them all. And I wish we didn't have to, but it is what it is. For a city of around 300 000 people, even 30 dogs destroyed per week in ONE pound is too many. But IMO just one dead dog is one too many when it's easily prevented if people would just desex their dogs. So many people get a 'free dog' from a newspaper ad...but that free dog came from somewhere...a sexually entire bitch...that probably got dumped at the pound after having her pups. Those pups won't be desexed, which just adds to the problem...and so on it goes.

[Skipy]

Can I ask if you know the figure of how many dogs all together are PTS in all of Australia per year? My own curiosity really.....