Desexing

[karen135]

ok so we finished puppy pre school it was done at the vets as we were there i asked about getting daisy spayed and asked her if she needs to have a seaon first and she said no but with all other dogs in the past we have been told that they do so now i am unsure as what to do for the best for her is it better to get it done abot 6 to 8 months they were saying or wait and let her have 1 season than i think i was 3 months we had to wait with our other ones before getting them done

karen

[arby]

We've always been told around 6-8 months.

What breed is it?

Alot of people agree that larger breeds should be older when desexed.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

The idea that a bitch needed to have a season before speying is archaic and has no place in today's dog management IMO. The risk of delaying the spey surgery until after a season has come and gone is just not worth taking. Your vet today is correct: spey earlier if possible. IMO 6-8 mths is too old for some breeds but I see so many unwanted dogs and pups in the pounds b/c somebody thought they could wait to spey their bitch...IMO spey as soon as you can. An unwanted pregnancy can happen too easily IMO and what would you do? Spey and abort? Allow her to whelp? Raise the pups? Then what? Try to rehome them?

Nope, spey sooner if you can. JMO.

[Skipy]

If you ALLOW them to just wonder around the neighbourhood unwanted pregnancy can occur. What risk? That she just goes nuts and flies across 2m fence? Seriously, some people have never heard of fencing.....

I agree with arby, depending on the breed of your dog...

Search DOL for issues regarding early desexing and some arguments about eary desexing and side effects... First heat per se does not have anything to do with it, its more of a age thing.

[Florise]

The idea that a bitch needed to have a season before speying is archaic and has no place in today's dog management

Not true at all. It is always a personal choice and a good idea to do research before making the decision of when to desex, as you appear to be doing Karen.

The idea that a bitch needs to have a LITTER prior to desexing IS however, archaic.

Waiting until the dog is around 9-12 months old is not a bad idea because it allows them to mature physically with all their hormones still active.

If you can keep the bitch contained when in season, I would wait. Others here will tell you otherwise. Keep reading and seeking opinions.

[karen135]

The idea that a bitch needed to have a season before speying is archaic and has no place in today's dog management

Not true at all. It is always a personal choice and a good idea to do research before making the decision of when to desex, as you appear to be doing Karen.

The idea that a bitch needs to have a LITTER prior to desexing IS however, archaic.

Waiting until the dog is around 9-12 months old is not a bad idea because it allows them to mature physically with all their hormones still active.

If you can keep the bitch contained when in season, I would wait. Others here will tell you otherwise. Keep reading and seeking opinions.

she is a bull mastiff cross pitt bull who will be getting spayed all the dogs i have have been spayed as well i would not have one who is not. but thought for her size this was a bit early for her to be getting spayed as we have never been advised this before

karen

[Jed]

With a larger breed, providing you are able to contain her during her season - I would wait. If you have been able to contain your earlier dogs, I can see no problem.

There seems to be sufficient evidence that letting them have a season, or waiting until around 12 months, is a better option, particularly for a larger breed.

Vet opinion changes on various matters, but dogs do not. There seems to be growing evidence that medium to large breeds are better left to mature prior to desexing.

However, rescues have pups neutered at 8 week or so, without problems.

The only reason for early speys is to prevent unwanted litters, and if that is not going to happen, might be better to leave it.

The risk of mammary cancer increases if the bitch has a season. If they are speyed pre-season, they are less likely to develop mammary cancer later. However, as dogs seem to randomly develop cancer of all sorts, for no good reason that there is any proof of, whether neutered or not, I wonder if the mammary cancer argument is a valid one!!

[sas]

Completely up to you when you de-sex your dog. If your dog came from a breeder check with them when they feel the best time is.

Puppies in shelters get desexed at 8 weeks of age.

There are pros and cons.

You do whatever you feel most comfortable with and as long as you make an educated decision and keep your girl safe during her seasons I'm sure things will be ok.

[morgan]

Why don't you ask around until you find a vet who can desex your girl, but splice some ovarian tissue under the skin to allow some hormones still to be released? The technique has been perfected - to my knowledge a couple of bitches that have had this done have still had a "silent season", (but no discharge, smell or puppies) but most bitches are perfectly ok

At least this way you won't have to worry about damaged growth or spay incontinence - or puppies.

[Dogsfevr]

I would get it done 6-8 months.

Also in some large breeds they come into season latter on,i have had bitches not come in till 2 yrs plus.

Lets face it the larger the dog the more it costs

We have never had issues with spayig at that age in over 20 plus yrs & all our pups by contract have to be spayed at 6 months or if in season first then they wait but generally all are done before they come as people dont want the bitch bleeding all through the house or those that have an outside dog only dont want to bring the dog in for the time of the season so keeping it outside can be a risk

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

If you ALLOW them to just wonder around the neighbourhood unwanted pregnancy can occur. What risk? That she just goes nuts and flies across 2m fence? Seriously, some people have never heard of fencing.....

I agree with arby, depending on the breed of your dog...

Search DOL for issues regarding early desexing and some arguments about eary desexing and side effects... First heat per se does not have anything to do with it, its more of a age thing.

If you mean wander the neighbourhood, it doesn't necessarily mean that the owner has "allowed" them to wander. A bitch in season will escape situations where ordinarily it would be highly improbable. Just as importantly, an entire male will scale even colourbond fences to get to a bitch on heat. It comes down to a dog's basic instinct when discussing a bitch in season, and IMO it's not a risk I'd ever take by leaving an entire bitch outside when in season as many people seem to do even these days. Not only that, but what about the increased risk of mammary tumours (cancerous ones at that?) by speying after the first season? This particular cancer is likely to be preventible if the bitch is speyed before her first season.

I've spoken to people who thought their yard was escape-proof, yet they've come home to find their dog is missing - it's not likely that a person has taken the dog b/c access gates are locked from the inside. On closer questioning, I've found their dog is still entire...perhaps that is coincidence, perhaps not.

[Skipy]

but splice some ovarian tissue under the skin to allow some hormones still to be released?

Do you know by any chance what the level of hormoes are after this procedure? Has anyone looked at that, meaning is it equivalent to having ovaries, etc....

Good suggestion. You recon that is still shorter surgery time than just leaving ovaries intact?

[Toohey]

If you mean wander the neighbourhood, it doesn't necessarily mean that the owner has "allowed" them to wander. A bitch in season will escape situations where ordinarily it would be highly improbable. Just as importantly, an entire male will scale even colourbond fences to get to a bitch on heat.

Lillysmum, out of curiousity, how many entire dogs, especially bitches on heat, have you had to manage in your own yard?

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

If you mean wander the neighbourhood, it doesn't necessarily mean that the owner has "allowed" them to wander. A bitch in season will escape situations where ordinarily it would be highly improbable. Just as importantly, an entire male will scale even colourbond fences to get to a bitch on heat.

Lillysmum, out of curiousity, how many entire dogs, especially bitches on heat, have you had to manage in your own yard?

Two - except that they were both kept indoors through their seasons. So, the more accurate answer to your question would be zero, b/c I knew enough to NOT leave them "in [my] own yard." It's just that too many people think it's perfectly fine to leave a bitch in season in the yard...which isn't advisable IMO.

Does that help?

[morgan]

but splice some ovarian tissue under the skin to allow some hormones still to be released?

Do you know by any chance what the level of hormones are after this procedure? Has anyone looked at that, meaning is it equivalent to having ovaries, etc....

Good suggestion. You recon that is still shorter surgery time than just leaving ovaries intact?

Don't know much about this procedure, but it normally produces fewer hormones than intact ovaries - in the group I saw mentioned, only two bitches still had a limited heat cycle. Don't know whether it would reduce anaesthetic time with only one vet, but an extra pair of hands (vet nurse?) could be preparing the ovarain tissue for insertion while the surgery was being completed.

IMO it would not be as good as leaving ovaries intact, but an excellent compromise for those that don't wish to do this, and easier for vets to achieve. With so much desexing being done younger and younger, alternatives really do need to be considered for our dogs' sakes. Maybe the lower amount of hormones resulting from the splicing procedure would reduce the chance of mammary cancers whilst still giving some protection from all the other problems.

[Toohey]

Two - except that they were both kept indoors through their seasons. So, the more accurate answer to your question would be zero, b/c I knew enough to NOT leave them "in [my] own yard." It's just that too many people think it's perfectly fine to leave a bitch in season in the yard...which isn't advisable IMO.

Does that help?

Hmm, I gathered from the way you speak of the behaviour of entire dogs, that you must be a breeder of many years experience, who has great knowledge and insight into the behaviour of entire dogs of both sexes.

Guess I was wrong.

For the record, my entire bitches get frisky when in season, but have never tried to escape or dig their way out. Neither have I have had male dogs attempting or succeeding in scaling my fences. And, I live in suburbia.

It only takes a bit of common sense to manage a bitch in season, and the people who come to this forum seeking information do not deserve to beaten around the head with what YOU (LM) believe to be the right thing for them to do.

Please let them read and learn, and then make their own decisions, rather than coming at everybody with a "desex immediately" attitude.

[morgan]

My mother has always lived in suburbia, and has always had at least one entire bitch and one entire dog - her 6' paling fences have always been sufficient, and there has never been an accidental mating with her own males, let alone anyone else's. Needless to say there were times when the laundry was necessary to be on the safe side from possible intruders, but she has NEVER had a bitch try to escape.

Not saying that all dogs are so well behaved or that there aren't houdinis around, but it can be done. Even back in the 60's, when everyone let their dogs roam, her entire bulldog bitch was never accidentally mated, despite living in the backyard most of the time. There is no point generalising that ALL entire bitches will have accidental litters.

[karen135]

My mother has always lived in suburbia, and has always had at least one entire bitch and one entire dog - her 6' paling fences have always been sufficient, and there has never been an accidental mating with her own males, let alone anyone else's. Needless to say there were times when the laundry was necessary to be on the safe side from possible intruders, but she has NEVER had a bitch try to escape.

Not saying that all dogs are so well behaved or that there aren't houdinis around, but it can be done. Even back in the 60's, when everyone let their dogs roam, her entire bulldog bitch was never accidentally mated, despite living in the backyard most of the time. There is no point generalising that ALL entire bitches will have accidental litters.

hi thank you all for your advice ok so after lots of thinking have decided to follow as we have in the past and most likely allow dasiy to have her first season due to the fact that its has been said it reduces the chance mamorey cancer. as she is in an indoor dog and i am home with her all day anyway i cant see her being able to get out with out me seeing her attempt to

karen

[MolassesLass]

I'm not trying to sway you either way, it's entirely your decision, however, you said:

due to the fact that its has been said it reduces the chance mamorey cancer.

This is incorrect. Speying PRIOR to the first season reduces the chances of mammary cancer.

Mammary cancer is the most frequently occurring cancer detected in unspayed bitches. 26% of intact bitches develop tumours of the mammary glands and of these, 45% are malignant and 55% are benign (Giffin & Carlson, p.488 ). The risk of these tumours developing is significantly reduced if the bitch is spayed at a young age. Spaying prior to the first season reduces the risk to 1%. Spaying between the first and second seasons reduces the risk to 8% (Giffin & Carlson. p.489). The older the bitch at the time of spaying the less protection will be afforded by the operation.

- Neutering: fact and fiction

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Two - except that they were both kept indoors through their seasons. So, the more accurate answer to your question would be zero, b/c I knew enough to NOT leave them "in [my] own yard." It's just that too many people think it's perfectly fine to leave a bitch in season in the yard...which isn't advisable IMO.

Does that help?

Hmm, I gathered from the way you speak of the behaviour of entire dogs, that you must be a breeder of many years experience, who has great knowledge and insight into the behaviour of entire dogs of both sexes.

Guess I was wrong.

For the record, my entire bitches get frisky when in season, but have never tried to escape or dig their way out. Neither have I have had male dogs attempting or succeeding in scaling my fences. And, I live in suburbia.

It only takes a bit of common sense to manage a bitch in season, and the people who come to this forum seeking information do not deserve to beaten around the head with what YOU (LM) believe to be the right thing for them to do.

Please let them read and learn, and then make their own decisions, rather than coming at everybody with a "desex immediately" attitude.

No, I suppose my experience in dog rescue doesn't cut it for you, eh? I don't suppose you're confronted daily by the numbers of unwanted dogs and pups in the pounds and shelters that end up dead and at least some of these were because someone didn't manage their entire bitch or dog appropriately. When people ask the question here about desexing, and when they indicate that the advice they have conflicts with what they already know, I conclude from that limited information that they're looking for an 'average person' answer, rather than an answer aimed at a registered breeder, or someone that has a thorough knowledge of dog management including the management of entire animals.

I may not have been involved in rescue and foster for a long time - which is true - but being confronted by other people's cast-offs does entitle me to become angry and sad that there are so many thoughtless people in our society that either can't or won't manage their dog/s appropriately, and therefore they're contributing to the unwanted dog problem due to their lack of action.

When someone asks for opinions about desexing, I give mine. My position is that unless you're a registered breeder, there is NO reason to keep a sexually entire companion dog, so why on earth do it? I've had dogs for close to 40 yrs, each and every one of them was desexed as soon as practical and under VET advice as to the timing of the surgery. The advice used to be "wait for a season before spey" but that's out-of-date according to MANY vets today. Sure, there are still some that advocate such a position, but they're becoming fewer and further between. IMO that's a good thing.

I don't believe in desex immediately IF the owner is responsible. But if every owner was responsible, how does that explain the large number of dumped and straying dogs that are impounded every single day? Hmmmm...can't be just by chance now, can it?

I would rather see people desex their dogs young than be picking up the pieces of yet another accidental litter. There's nothing worse than seeing dogs on death row and knowing you can't possibly help them and that they WILL DIE today or tomorrow. Young, healthy beautiful dogs that don't deserve to die. Yet someone was "responsible" for their existence in this world at some point.

I respect registered breeders and the work they do to improve their chosen breeds. But the average dog owner, the one that waits to desex b/c they haven't gotten around to it yet, or b/c they don't think it's that important, or b/c they're following well-meaning but misleading advice (for their situation) is the one that I aim my responses towards b/c I know there are LOTS of visitors to this forum and not all of them are responsible, well-informed, well-educated dog owners.