My Dog Just Had A Fit Or Seizure

[Pug64]

Reading the last 16 pages it seems everyone's dog started with fits at young ages. My Gracie is 12 and although I've only had her 2 years -she was a rescue- I know she's only just started with the fits in the last couple of months.

My husband said he thought she had a few when she first came to us but I never noticed them - and I notice everything about my pugs believe me- he never said anything to me at the time so I don't know what was going on with her then. All I know is that for the past few months she's been having night time fits and I'm worried sick about her.

So does anybody know of any dogs who've developed epilepsy in older years?

Or does she not have it at all and I should be looking for something else and going to another vet for more tests?

I just want to do the right thing by her she's such a brilliant little dog and I love her with all my heart.

[frufru]

As Puggles said to you in your other thread there are many things that can cause seizures.

If seizures have no known cause this is referred to as idiopathic or primary epilepsy and is probably inherited (usually develops between 1-5 years )

Seizures that have an identifiable cause are called secondary epilepsy. Causes include (but not limited to):

* toxic poisoning (eg lead but lots of other things)

* infection (eg distemper)

* degenerative diseases

* metabolism

* traumatic (eg blow to the head)

* brain tumour

I have a friend whose dog (6yrs) started having seizures after a brown snake bite - she is medicated

I have another friend whose dog developed Cushings disease at around 10 and as the disease progressed she started having seizures.

There is lots of info on the net about canine epilepsy - do a search: www.canine-epilepsy.com is excellent I have a whole file and am always looking for new info

My boy has not had a seizure for 12 months (he is not medicated) and turns 5 in Dec. Yeah

Edited November 8, 2007 by frufru

[~Anne~]

Only your Vet can really determine what is causing the seizures. I would say that, in my opinion, it is not epilepsy though and I would be speaking with my Vet about the possible causes of the siezures.

You also should look at the fact that at 12 years of age, she doesn't have a lot of time left and if the valium controls the seizures and she is happy, this might be better then putting her through a lot of invasive tests to determine an exact cause.

[CaseyKay]

Start with the good news: Miss KC is almost 5 months seizure free, yay!

Had a very horrible experience yesterday. My husband and I were walking our two border collies (KC my epi girl and Maddie) in the paddocks across the reserve from our place. We had been walking for about half an hour and the dogs were happy racing around. My husband was a bit behind me and I heard him shout, turned around to see Maddie crashed to the ground and having a grand mal seizure. I just could not believe it, KC is the one who has seizures!!! But KC has never had a seizure like that one, it was so violent, I thought her back was going to snap she was so rigid. She bit through her tongue and there was blood falling on the ground. This went on for almost two minutes (we are used to timing KC) and we were trying to decide whether we could pick her up to get her to the car when it stopped. She lay there very still (as soon as KC finishes having one she races around blindly). I was totally in shock, I thought she was dead. Then she started moving a little and my husband picked her up and started back for the house. We rushed her to the ER vet in town. We got there about 45 minutes after the seizure.

By this stage she was looking okay but very whiny. I was panicking because the night before she had wanted to go out and ate a lot of grass and threw up a few times. But every dog I have had has done that. We had also been out that morning for 4 hours before we came home and took them out, so I had no idea if that was the first one, or if something had happened, they were out in the yard when we were out.

They put her on a fluid drip but did not take bloodwork for some reason. It was very busy so we left her there (what a sad place, so many sick and injured animals being rushed in, it is the only after hours vet in our city of 450,000). When I rang them they said she was very restless and seemed confused, was circling in her cage and yelping so they gave her valium.

By about 6pm they reported she was fine and sleeping but thought it was best to leave her there overnight just in case as we were 20 mins drive away. I picked her up 7am and took her to our usual vet. They took blood straight away and asked heaps of questions, just in case the bloodwork came back clear.

They asked if she is related to KC (she is, KCs dad and maddies mum are siblings which makes them cousins?) I said why? They said "well it could be epilepsy", I said no no can't be, I already have a dog with epilepsy!! Maddie is 7 years old. They said it could also be a brain tumour. I took her home as she was stressing, and was waiting to hear back about the bloodwork, kind of strange to be hoping your dog ate something poisonous, as you can't bear to think about the alternatives!! They rang today at lunchtime and said the bloodwork showed her liver enzymes were elevated which suggested she was metabolising some kind of toxin. They are doing more tests this afternoon to see if they can figure out what. But she is fine now, she is just very very tired. She is my "working dog", we do obedience, agility and tracking. She is such a serious, independant dog but today, she won't let me go anywhere. She seems fast asleep and if I try and leave the room, she leaps up and follows me. I have never seen her clingy before. She was very pleased to see me when I picked her up from the ER vet, but started howling as soon as handed her over at the usual vet. It was awful.

They said if it was something really serious like 1080 she would have shown other symptoms such as vomitting, pain etc. They said they could not think of any toxin that the first symptom is a seizure. And then after a post ictal phase, the dog is fine again. She is going to the toilet no problem, no diaorrhea or anything. They said usually with poisoning you get other symptoms and then a seizure as things progress. The only thing was eating grass and throwing up on Saturday night. She didn't go out at all except in the car on Saturday. There is nothing in our house and section that could poison her, with 2 dogs and a cat we are very mindful of things like that. If it was something on the walk it happened very quickly.

Any of you guys know what could cause something like this? They said it is possible they won't be able to tell what it was, as the fluids given by the er vet may have flushed most of it out of her system, but i'm still hoping we can get some answers. If it was in the park etc I need to know for the safety of other dogs.

I need to ask them...do the elevated liver enzymes definately mean it was a toxin if that is the only thing they find.

[~Anne~]

OMG, how scary for you.

What flea/heartworm control do you use? Have you changed this at all?

Could it possibly be something she is absorbing through her skin? Some time ago, here on DOL, someone reported their dog having seizures and ebing very sick and it turned out it was her deoderant (or it could have been hair spray??). The dog would sit with her while she was getting dressed.

[~Anne~]

I found the thread!

Seizures caused by deoderant

I think you will find this very interesting CaseyKay! I suggest you pm TangerineDream.

[Stewie_the_Frenchie]

my aunty's silky terrier had quite a bad seizure the other day...vet actually diagnosed epilepsy and she's on meds. it was very scary for her owner, touch and go for a while there, but now back to normal.

good luck

[CaseyKay]

Thanks for that Puggles. I will check it out. Nothing has changed I can think of.

Here is what the blood actually showed:

Albumin (sp?) 46 range should be 25-44

Slightly lowered red and white blood cells.

Slightly elevated liver enzymes.

Vet said these are non specific changes and that when the receptionist spoke to me earlier she didn't mean this shows it was a toxin, the vet thought it "might" show there was an infection but further tests did not back this up.

So now, much like back in 2004 with KC, we play the waiting game to see if she has another.

So vet thinks unlikely to be toxin which is also what the er vet said.

Could be something we'll never know, ie a one off (please please)

Could be epilepsy

Could be brain tumour

I can cope with KC seizures. I don't know if I can cope with the kind Maddie had. If she has another, I will get an MRI done to rule out a brain tumour. With her age I will need to know that. I do have a slight advantage now... because of kc i have read everything i can get my hands on about epilepsy.

Again I am so glad my husband works 3pm-11pm and I work 8am -4pm!! We will definately know if she has another.

I just keep thinking it can't possibly be epilepsy or something even more serious because that's just not fair.

[Mizzi]

I found the thread!

Seizures caused by deoderant

I think you will find this very interesting CaseyKay! I suggest you pm TangerineDream.

CaseyKay, I sincerely hope that Maddie never has another seizure. It must have been so frightening.

Puggles, I am so glad I joined this forum. There are so many things to learn from others' experiences.

[frufru]

CaseyKay, wishing you all the best.

[cowanbree]

My old girl Kell had a number of seizures for about 6 weeks and then they totally cleared up. Never really proved what caused it but was offered a number of reasons why it happened including liver problems. Apparently in older dogs seizures are normally secondary to some other underlying issue. I started her on Milk Thistle and over time the severity of the seizures lessened and then they stopped. I am no expert but thought you might like a positive story. I did have to have her pts in the end, she developed very bad circulation issues but she was seizure free

[~Anne~]

Puggles, I am so glad I joined this forum. There are so many things to learn from others' experiences.

I feel the same way. My knowledge just keeps growing. DOL has to be one of the best dog resources EVER!

[CaseyKay]

Maddie update. I so, so hoped I wouldn't have to write this. Sadly, Maddie had another seizure today. We have been in to see the vet this afternoon. I said due to the fact I already have an epileptic dog and the amount of worrying I am likely to do, I would like her to have an MRI. Well here in new zealand you have to get that done after hours at the private people hospital and they only do animals on a wednesday night. They can't do tonight, they can't do next two as they are holidays. So we will have to wait until the 9th. They are taking a fasting/post meal blood work tomorrow to test for anything they didn't two weeks ago, includes "long shots" like lead poisoning, toxoplasmosis and neospora (the latter two both protozoa).

Vet has recommended that due to wait and it being holidays, that we should start Maddie on Pb, just in case. So we will do that when the bloodwork comes back.

I did not see the seizure today, but my husband rang me at work and she was still very ataxic/post ictal when I got home an hour later. At the vet she just lay on the floor. She is home now and just looks very very tired, but she doesn't want to be alone, so I am trying not to move around the house too much. She is staring at me as much as I am staring at her.

I am off work until the 7th Jan now, but I suspect I am going to spend my entire time off work watching her like a hawk. I think the vet is right about Pb, it might give me some peace of mind. The vet was so good, he knows about worried I am and he is trying to think of every possible reason.

Kelly & the 2 border collies both with seizures (On my avatar KC on left and Maddie on right).

Edited December 19, 2007 by CaseyKay

[~Anne~]

I am sorry to hear that Caseykay. I hope they can find to what it is and that it is nothing serious. *hugs* for you and your guys.

[Lacey13]

Hi CK: I hope my story will help you. In March this year my little mini schnauzer girl had a series of seizures and after bloods checked went on Ph. Meds were controlling her condition when my old mini boy (11) had a series of seizures. He too had bloods done and was put on Ph. I was just coming to grips with having them both on meds when my girl starting fitting again.

It was a very wet Sunday afternoon. I was sitting reading the paper when I heard a thud and she (who had been seizure free for 5 months) started. It lasted under a minute. I rang the vet and told to give valium if she had another. She had another fit about 2 hours later and I gave valium. I increased her Ph dose (from half to 3\4) that night. She had another fit a couple of hours later.

By this time I was frantic and a friend came and went with me to Strathfield where she was admitted. She had a fit in the early am and they administered valium and she had another fit about 7.30 am Mon morning. They had noticed she had reacted poorly with the valium and after 7.30 fit they gave her different medication (sorry can't remember the name but its something they give to calm before surgery).

An MRI was organised (but could only be done on the Wednesday) so she stayed at Strathfield (seizure free I'm pleased to say) until the thursday after mri. MRI was clear and we increased her meds and I was back and forwards to my vet every 3 weeks as we checked her levels. She became quite manic on the higher dosage and finally we settled on 1\2 mornings and 1 whole at night. I'm pleased to say she has not seized since August and is doing brillantly. She's gained her Novice title and we working on Open now!

So I have both a young and old dog on Ph. They are both (touch wood) doing brillantly for now and I can't thank Puggles enough for her advice and support during my dark times as I struggled with the worry and concern of my beloved companions. I've decided not to pursue any medical investigations of my old boy - he's coping very well, looks wonderful and bounces around like a 2 year old. I've also got them on herbal meds (Robert McDowell) for Heart Repair (he has a heart murmur) and Epilepsy.

I empathised with you when I read your post - because I've been down that same road. But, as time passes you come to terms with it all and I have two wonderful little minis who are doing brilliantly on meds - and that's all that counts.

Good luck, try and be optimistic and enjoy your dogs. Have a good Christmas. Cheers,

[~Anne~]

Lacey, it is great to hear how well everything is going!

Caseykay - any news?

I have joined another forum that is specifically for canine epilepsy and, hoping that Troy doesn't mind, I am posting a link here. The forum is moderated by specialists in canine epilepsy and I am sure it will be of help to those with epileptic dogs.

Canine Epilepsy Network Forum

Edited December 20, 2007 by Puggles

[Staffy-Lover]

puggles do u use milk thistle for monte?

I am thinking about it for my boy but wanted some feedback first. ta

[~Anne~]

puggles do u use milk thistle for monte?

I am thinking about it for my boy but wanted some feedback first. ta

No, I haven't used it as yet Bec. I have read where lots of people are giving it... but in my view, while they are saying it helps, their dogs are usually still having seizures. I haven't heard anyone say yet they they have noticed a marked difference and that it is definitely due to the milk thistle.

I guess the same could be said for the fish oil that I give Monte. But at least with this I can see that it is helping his coat if nothing else. All of my guys are on fish oil and the cat as well and their coats are great!

There are always so many suggestions and ideas.... it seems the US are changing the drug protocl too. They now say that dogs should be put on Kbr as first choice and not Pb as we still do in Australia. They have also started to use another drug over there... but I can't recall the name.

[~Anne~]

Any news CaseyKay??

Monte is back to having clusters on a 10 day cycle. Last night he was twitching as well. We may need to up his meds again but I am really hesitant about this after his bromide toxicity saga. This condition can be such a vexing thing! ;)

[CaseyKay]

Hi Puggles, sorry I haven't gotten back but I was waiting for the 3rd lot of blood tests. I'm still not 100% clear on what is going on with Miss Maddie but I think we are getting there. The 3rd tests were supposed to be back today but I didn't hear from the vet, I will call again tomorrow. Basically in the 2nd tests just before Christmas (she has had a lot of blood tests!), they came back negative for neospora, toxo, lead, thyroid problems etc. But the vet said there was "something" and wanted to do another test. Which is the ones we just had done.

I had a long talk with them on Monday of this week. The tests done the day after maddie had her first seizure (2nd Dec i think it was) showed that her white cell count was 2.5 when should be a minimum of 3.6. This was the same in the tests the day of the second seizure. The tests on the first and second day also showed up a problem with liver function. At the time of the first tests they did not think this was significant. At the second tests this was more significant (it was also a different way of testing it). When he took the blood he mentioned that her blood looked "very fatty". It was hard to draw and he showed me it in the vial. This 2nd one was a test with an 8 hour fast and then 2 hours after a meal.

So the reasons for doing the third test this week was to repeat the same fasting/after meal test and a test for glucose and a some specific liver panel. They THINK what has been causing all this is a liver problem. Caused by:

Possibility #1: the evening before the first seizure she was not well generally and ate a lot of grass and threw up multiple times. She could have eaten a dead poisoned animal etc that afternoon as we were out in the country. So could be after effects of a toxin and if so could be permenant.

Possibility #2: an infection in her liver which would explain why the white cell count in her blood is low.

Possibility #3: something else either liver or pancreas related. They have tested for leukaemia and it wasn't that.

So they THINK, (from what I understand, it has all gotten rather complicated) that her liver for whatever reason is not functioning properly. There is a lot of fat in her blood stream. This is making her blood quite viscous. Both seizures she had while exercising on a hot day. The current theory is that the exercise caused her system to "crash". She has between blood tests #1 and #3 lost weight. She is a thin but muscly and athletic dog and was an ideal weight for a sports dog at 18.5 kg and is now 16.5kg and feels horrible and bony. They said this could be expected if she is not metabolising fat. She also smelled very "doggy" for a couple of weeks there and her coat looked dull and fell out a bit. She just looked generally unwell. In the past 4 days she has perked up considerably, is less lethargic etc, we have put her on a low fat diet so may be that or perhaps what ever is wrong is improving. She wants to go out for walks/play/do training. So I am very keen to see what these latest tests show.

Well I asked the vet last week if this does seem to be the problem should we cancel the MRI...he said we will see what the bloods show, but I haven't got the results yet or talked to them again but I'm guessing it will be cancelled. My bank balance will be happy about that, although we have spent on this episode the cost of an mri anyway!

Sorry if this is long and confusing...I'm confused enough myself. But it might help someone one day. I did not even know liver problems could cause seizures but I looked it up on the computer and it appears it is so. We had started maddie on Pb but only 15mg BID but took her straight off it when liver problems were mentioned!! She is on a low fat diet and also taking milk thistle. They would need to be 100% sure it is an infection before they gave her anti-biotics due to her white count already being low.

KC my actual epi girl has been very good and no seizures since a big cluster in August. It seems to me looking at her seizure log that if she has a cluster she will go for a fair while without having any others. She had bloods done just before christmas and her Pb is still in the low but therapeutic range so I'm happy with that. She is so happy because maddie wants to play again. We have been looking after our friends young papillon. He is not as good to play with, too tiny!