My Dog Just Had A Fit Or Seizure

[~Anne~]

Have you ever come across bias because of the drugs and their effects?

I have recently been accused of being 'selfish and cruel' keeping my dog on medication to control his epilpesy and that I should have him euth'd. Mind you the moron who said it has no idea what, if any, side affects he has from his medication nor did she know anything about epilepsy anyway but it did get me to thinking about how people view this kind of thing.

[CaseyKay]

Oh yeah. Know two people in dog sports who chose to pts their dog rather than have an epileptic dog. They didn't even try meds ...one saying "too expensive" and the other feeling the dog would have no quality of life either way.

It is very hard when people say things like that, are they saying I am cruel? That KC has no quality of life? I think she has better quality of life than an awful lot of dogs out there. She gets a lot of exercise, she spends less than 2 hours a day by herself and even then the other dog is with her. She goes swimming and rabbit hunting. She seems to have no ataxia or side effects on the Pb whatsoever. I also disagree it is "expensive", the Pb costs me about $9 per month. Plus blood work maybe $50 every 6 months. So call it $20 a month. I spend that on eating out LUNCH sometimes.

I have also had a person who has no experience with epileptic dogs say "I can't believe you drug her. She will die young of liver damage. Don't you know there are all sorts of homeopathic and alternative therapies for epilepsy. Have you even TRIED any of them".

Most people who know me well know I love KC more than anything in the world and i make decisions for her, the best I can, with the knowledge I have. The comments still hurt though.

[sandgrubber]

Of course it's important to treat epilepsy if that's what it is (sounds like the case in this thread is the real thing . . . this response is meant for others who may be reading). . . but it's also important not to jump to conclusions. Seizures aren't easy to diagnose. It's important to look at the full situation and be willing to think outside the box.

I came close to neutering my two best bitches because they had seizures . . . only to figure out that the problem isn't hereditary. They've been swimming in and drinking from a fishpond that grows blue green algae (ie, cyanobacteria) and are getting occasional doses of a nerve poison. I'm very grateful to the vet who told me to observe and think before running a lot of tests, which she said were likely to yield no clear answers. But . . . these guys symptoms were not typical of epilepsy and didn't happen but a few times a year . . . commonly with two of them fitting in the same day or a few days apart.

Edited March 7, 2007 by sandgrubber

[~Anne~]

I came close to neutering my two best bitches because they had seizures . . . only to figure out that the problem isn't hereditary.

From my knowledge it has never been concluded that epilepsy is an inherited disorder so perhaps you were going down the wrong track anyway.

Apart from that though I do understand what you are saying... and I think I have read your thread where you finally solved the puzzle with your dogs. Well done on pursuing it through to a succesful conclusion. Glad to hear your guys are ok now.

[Belljari]

Hi,

My dog had epilepsy and he lived to the ripe old age of 12. Zues had his first fit around the age 2 to 3 yrs.I thought he was dying when I first heard and saw him I also rushed him to my vet and by the time we got there he was fine! Unfortunately his epilepsy was bad and I took him to Dr Richard LeCouteur to see what could be done. He did test etc and put him on phenobarbital and also potassium bromide.

Some days in the begining he would have fit after fit and every time he had a fit I had to give him PB so Iam talking about 24 tablets! I would ring Dr Le Coutour in tears thinking Iam going to kill my dog with all these tablets but it didn't and when the potassium bromide and the PB built up in his system he was ok. He still had fits but as he got older I lowered the dose

and as he got older he hardly ever had a fit.

They gave me a booklet on The Clinical Management of Epilepsy of Dogs & Cats. Richard Le Couteur and Georgina Child. If you are interested I can photocopy and sent it to you.

Bel

[~Anne~]

They gave me a booklet on The Clinical Management of Epilepsy of Dogs & Cats. Richard Le Couteur and Georgina Child. If you are interested I can photocopy and sent it to you.

Bel

I would love that! Georgina Childs is Monte's Neuro.

[Belljari]

No problem I know how hard it is and I think every bit of information helps. Its probably a little old since it was the early 90's when I went. Zues passsed away in 2002 not from anything related to the fits! Just PM your address and I will photocopy it on the weekend and send it on Monday.

Bel

[Belljari]

I thought i would just add this also as read somewhere on this thread the importance of giving the medication 12 hrs apart and at the same time time every day.

I did this religously his dose originally was 4 tabs and 4ml o f potasim bromide morning and night evenually it ended up being 1 tab and 1 ml morning and night.

He also reacted to stress so I kept his life reasonably stress free and he also loved routine!Feed at the same time walked at the same time etc. I know it sound pedantic but it worked.

[sandgrubber]

From my knowledge it has never been concluded that epilepsy is an inherited disorder so perhaps you were going down the wrong track anyway.

Apart from that though I do understand what you are saying... and I think I have read your thread where you finally solved the puzzle with your dogs. Well done on pursuing it through to a succesful conclusion. Glad to hear your guys are ok now.

Thanks for the reply.

Two problems caused me real difficulty before I found a good explanation for what was going on:

1. As I understand it, it has never been proven that epilepsy is hereditary, but neither has the hereditary factor been dismissed. If a nanna and granddaughter both have seizures it raises a lot of questions. Other breeders in my breed won't use an epileptic dog, and are very likely to cull an epileptic bitch.

2. Tongues wag. Even if there's no basis for worry, I don't want to be the person who is blacklisted for having bred from an epileptic bitch.

[~Anne~]

Thanks for the reply.

Two problems caused me real difficulty before I found a good explanation for what was going on:

1. As I understand it, it has never been proven that epilepsy is hereditary, but neither has the hereditary factor been dismissed. If a nanna and granddaughter both have seizures it raises a lot of questions. Other breeders in my breed won't use an epileptic dog, and are very likely to cull an epileptic bitch.

2. Tongues wag. Even if there's no basis for worry, I don't want to be the person who is blacklisted for having bred from an epileptic bitch.

Yes I could very well undertsand your stand from a breeders viewpoint. I phoned Monte's breeder some time ago to inform her that he was an epileptic (I adopted Monte through rescue and not via the breeder). She seemed quite surprised and said that she hadn't heard of any others from her lines with this condition. She then told me she had used him at stud several times so, I guess if it is hereditary, then there will be possibly be a few more epi Pugs out there.

The thought that breeders would euthanase or 'cull' an epileptic bitch is horrible. What on earth for? Why not desex her and re-home her? I realise it isn't easy re-homing a dog with this condition but I am living proof that people will take on a dog with this condition and I know of many, many more who have done the same.

[~Anne~]

No problem I know how hard it is and I think every bit of information helps. Its probably a little old since it was the early 90's when I went. Zues passsed away in 2002 not from anything related to the fits! Just PM your address and I will photocopy it on the weekend and send it on Monday.

Bel

Will do, thanks!!!

[CaseyKay]

The thought that breeders would euthanase or 'cull' an epileptic bitch is horrible. What on earth for? Why not desex her and re-home her? I realise it isn't easy re-homing a dog with this condition but I am living proof that people will take on a dog with this condition and I know of many, many more who have done the same.

Puggles you are a better person than me I would not be able to adopt a dog knowing it is epileptic. It is hard enough with KC whom I loved for almost two years before the seizures started.

[frufru]

I have done quite a lot of reading on this topic and inheritance has definitely not been ruled out - for info see the Canine Epilepsy Project "a genetic factor may be highly suspected when siezures occur in dogs 1 to 3 years of age" and "test breedings of epileptic dams and sires ...have produced incidences of epilepsy in offspring ranging from betweem 38% (a study of 3 different epileptic bitches outcrossed to a single epileptic sire) to 100% (a mating of 2 epileptic siblings)" There is certainly ongoing research involoving many breeds where inheritance is strongly suspected as a cause of epilepsy. Obviously there are other causes, as we all know from reading and our own experiences, but inheritance is certainly a factor which must be considered.

[~Anne~]

Got a website link furfru?

[frufru]

Vetgen are currently conducting research into inherited epilesy (they want to identify the genes responsible and produce a test) for the following breeds:

Australian Shep

beagle

Dalmation

collie

english springer spaniel

irish setter

Prof. Barbara licht (Uni of Illinois) is looking at inherited epilepsy in standard poodles

The Poodle Club of America and many other breed clubs donate money and encourage their members to provide dna to these projects so there is obviously a belief among breeders that idiopathic epilepsy is inherited in some breeds. The Poodle Club of America list inherited epilepsy as a recognised health problem in standard poodles.

Sorry I couldn't provide web addresses Puggles - I generally print stuff off and put it in a file.

Edited March 8, 2007 by frufru

[~Anne~]

I am aware there is research but I am not aware of any genetic link being proven. I thought you said they had proved there was a link and was interested to read the findings.

There are several databases being created by US reseacrhers into the epilepsy to help determine a link and I know that last year someone claimed to have found one but I have never been able to find any research info confirming just that.

Perhaps I'll google the name you gave.

If you have printed copies are you able to photocopy them? I would really like to read it.

[frufru]

No I never suggested it had been proven - the gene for narcolepsy has been identified and this is sometimes comes up in searches for epilepsy - from memory by Optigen who have a test for it. I was worried by your post dismissing inheritance as a factor when in fact this is of great concern to breeders and breed clubs. It would be very dissapointing if people continued to breed with animals whose epilepsy appears to be idiopathic. A very well known breeder of mini poodles in Europe went public when a boy she purchased produced offspring with epilepsy, contacting all who had purchased puppies or used him at stud and removing all progeny from their breeding programme. They no longer use younger males at stud. We need more breeders like this not ones who never talk about the cases they produce and when contacted by buyers whose dogs develop the disease hide behind the "we've never produced a case before".

[~Anne~]

No I never suggested it had been proven - the gene for narcolepsy has been identified and this is sometimes comes up in searches for epilepsy - from memory by Optigen who have a test for it. I was worried by your post dismissing inheritance as a factor when in fact this is of great concern to breeders and breed clubs. It would be very dissapointing if people continued to breed with animals whose epilepsy appears to be idiopathic. A very well known breeder of mini poodles in Europe went public when a boy she purchased produced offspring with epilepsy, contacting all who had purchased puppies or used him at stud and removing all progeny from their breeding programme. They no longer use younger males at stud. We need more breeders like this not ones who never talk about the cases they produce and when contacted by buyers whose dogs develop the disease hide behind the "we've never produced a case before".

Ahh Isee. Not being a breeder I don't always view things from a breeders view point. Having said this though, if I were to breed, there isn't a chance in high heavens that I would use a dog that had epilepsy. But this is because you can not prove it is not inherited... as opposed to it being proven to be inherited.

As I said, I had also phoned the breeder to see if she was aware of any others in her lines with epilepsy and I thought it also best to alert her to the fact that Monte has it. Monte was desexed as soon as he came into my care as I am not a breeder and saw no reason to keep him entire.

[frufru]

Sadly there are breeders who do breed from these dogs and hide under the umbrella that it has not been proven to be inhereted. I personally believe it is a matter of time before the genes are discovered for some forms of epilepsy - then lets see them run for cover. I think it is disgusting that breeders knowingly breed from animals that have such a distressing condition - imagine the family that buys a pet in good faith from a registered breeder and that beautiful puppy goes on to develop epilepsy as an adult. grrrr

[Staffy-Lover]

No proven link but like nearly everything else in epilepsy they haven't disproven it yet either hehehehhe. When my boy was first diagnosed with epi they asked me to trace the tree aswell but i had lost contact with the breeder.

So little is known about this disease that it is frustrating.

I would also like a copy of the book co written by doctor childs aswell if you can tell me where to buy it that would be great - thanks

Re the comments from people about our epis----

my boy is living life to the full and once every now and then the epi gets in the way of this but he has no pain and hardly any side effects - and we don't put people to sleep who have epi so there is no way in this world or the next i am putting my boy down.