My Dog Just Had A Fit Or Seizure

[~Anne~]

Puggles, you said could tell when you came home he had had a seizure...I presume it was a grand mal. Are his clusters always grand mals? Does he always drool etc?

He does have focals but these are usually very, very short in length of time, single and do not happen very often. He is a chronic grand mal clusterer. He always drools but, luckily for me, he has never urinated or defecated when he has a seizure.

For the first time a recently he had a single grand mal. This surprised me as he always clusters and had never just had one before.

My two are left in our yard when we ar enot there except for extreme weather. Our yard is small but is on two levels with 3 steps down to the lower level. They have 24 hours access to the garage via dog door but he has to walk up 3 steps to the door.

I also am concerned about his blind phase but I have noticed when watching him that there is some kind of inbuilt radar that appears to stop him from hitting walls hard. He tends to only 'bump' lightly into them and then switch direction. A bit like those wind up cars that turn in another direction when they bump into an obstacle. He does however run around manic like and this also increases his body temperature. My biggest fear is that this will happen on a warm/hot day and I will come home to a scene that I would rather not think about or that he will go into status because no-one is there to adminsiter valium to stop the cluster.

He is home often without humans for up to 8 - 9 hours.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Puggles

[CaseyKay]

That is a good point about not hitting things really hard. I haven't actually seen KC do that even though she is moving really fast, and she has had the frantic stage inside. During the pacing stage of post-ictal I have twice seen her walk into a corner of the room and seem unable to back up and get out of the corner by herself

Yes, the temperature thing is a big worry, both time at the vet after the clusters KC's temp has been just over 40 degrees. The dog run has a shade sail so I hope she would not get caught in the full sun.

Do you know anything about what happens if the cluster goes on too long? Will they just get closer and closer and turn into status?

[~Anne~]

Do you know anything about what happens if the cluster goes on too long? Will they just get closer and closer and turn into status?

The fear with a cluster is two fold. Firstly that the exertion on the body, including the heart, and the rising body temperature can be lethal. This degree of danger is also dependant on the cluster. Some dogs may cluster but each seizure in the cluster can be several hours apart so the dog's body has a chance to rest in between and this also gives time for their body temperature to fall. Others, like Monte, only have minutes in between each seizure. Monte averages 3 - 5 minutes between seizures in a cluster.

The second fear is that the brain pathway becomes 'less cluttered' each time a cluster occurs and this pre-disposes the dog to eventually go into status. Status is obviously very deadly. Monte is showing signs of the easier pathway. Originally his clusters were up to 10 minutes apart and averaged about 3 - 4 seizures or so. Now he averages 5 seizures and they are 3 - 5 mintues apart.

[CaseyKay]

Hi all,

I hope all our epi-pups are behaving! Mine is :rolleyes:

I have just finished reading a book called "for the love of a dog: a memoir" by Elisabeth Rose. I picked it up from the library because it has a border collie on the front. As it turns out it is about her border collie, Kierney, who has some behavioural problems. At age 2, she has her first grand mal and the vet says some of the "strange behaviour" was petite mals. Goes through a familar roller coaster. I totally identified with the author when it first happened and she kept thinking what is causing it? The landlord spraying herbicide? The vegetarian dog food? Her husbands maybe too rough wrestling matches with the dog? I do that, I know with KC what caused the problem in the first place (trauma) but what triggers a cluster?

She likens the seizure episodes to her dog drowning in the ocean and she can't help. She worries that Kierney is aware of what is happening to her. Interesting book for epi dog owners, warning though no happy ending.

It doesn't say anything on the dust jacket about the dog having epilepsy, as I said I just picked it up due to BC on the front.

[~Anne~]

She likens the seizure episodes to her dog drowning in the ocean and she can't help. She worries that Kierney is aware of what is happening to her. Interesting book for epi dog owners, warning though no happy ending.

I have actually spoken with many human epileptics about what they feel becuase I was concerned abou this as well.

It appears the overwhelming majority of humans feel nothing during the seizure. Some feel 'odd' (and this varies with oddness) before the seizure and some feel hazy afterwards. Some also reported headaches after a seizure and a feeling of tiredness.

PM Tim'sMum. Her daughter is an epileptic and she can also tell you how her daughter feels and what other human epis have said. Google it as well.

[CaseyKay]

Until I read this in the book it never occurred to me to wonder if she was conscious of what is happening. I just know she is scared afterwards. The last two seizures only (single ones) I have been able to tell she will seize before she does... before that they just seemed to happen. Both times she was chasing a ball, and she would run towards the ball and then stop and look blank. The first time I didn't know what she was doing and she did it three times until she seized. She also did this once in between the two seizures but it didn't turn into a full seizure.

Lately I have been googling seizures caused by head injuries in humans and reading what I can. I don't think I have learnt anything new. I have been wondering if maybe KC's seizures are actual epilepsy and not caused by her head trauma. I guess an MRI could tell me. I'm not curious enough to spend the $1500 just yet!

Edited February 8, 2007 by CaseyKay

[SueM]

Still no more episodes with Harvey I hope all is well with everyone

[Staffy-Lover]

Hi guys,

good to hear all is well with Harvey !!

Well My boy is back to seizures on a fortnightly cycle grrrrr.. i think because he has put on a bit of weight it might be affecting the tablets so i have him on a diet. Can't get his blood done until two weeks after you double dose and i double dose him every time he seizures.... (as i said it stops the clusters completely for him).

Fingers crossed the weight loss works for him.

Puggles - i worry constantly about not being at home during a seizure but i think you just can't let the epilepsy have you in a panic constantly otherwise you end up making yourself sick with worry. I know my boy has seizures when i am out sometimes as i see the same tell tale signs as you... the spit dried on the side of the face.. wee..and hyperactivity.

I just hope to god that they aren't too bad for him. I particularly worry on hot days as you know about the body temperature... but you can't leave the pool out incase he drowns in his blind phase so on really hot days i put bags of ice in his water and hope this will help him if he needs it.

hope all is well with the epi dogs

take care

[cammyuk]

HI we rescued an american cocker, and the next morning when i got up with her, she just collapsed on the floor, legs stiff,shaking ,and wetting on the floor.

When i rang the person where she came from, she said she knew nothing about it!!! anyway she went on to have a lot more, she was put on steroids, which did lessen the fits, but when she did have one it was more intense,and lasted quite a while,

I was told to just make sure she was safe and put her in a quiet dim room, away from noise and light and leave her to herself to recover. which was very good advice and worked well, sadly she was also nearly blind and in pup!!!!!

I f you read my other posting AMERICAN COCKER+ ASTHMA,you will see that 2 of the pups have problems , she had 5 ,all of which have been kept in the family,and one has hip dysplasia, and some fluid on the brain { which is awaiting test results } they thought he might have had a stroke,

Another one has muscle problems in his throat,

My one { emma} has had a mini stroke, so as you can see, many problems,

I was told by the vet that their mother had been used so much for breeding ,she had to have a caeserian or we could have lost her and the pups, anyway, sorry to go on so much .

I hope this bit of information about the fits helps,

[~Anne~]

Steroids?? What was the cause of her seizures?

[CaseyKay]

Question for you guys, Puggles? Staffy-lover?

KC has 37.5 mg Pb 7am and 7pm.

Friday in two weeks I am going away to a dog show with two friends and three dogs total. We can't fit more dogs in the van so KC has to stay at home. We leave at lunchtime. My husband leaves for work at 2pm.

Husband works too far away to make it home and back on his break, and he has nowhere to park where it is shady so he can't take her along. The best option the vet suggested, just for that night is Simon give her 30mg at 2pm (5 hours early and she will also have to be fed then) and 15mg when he gets home at midnight, then back to usual in the morning. I'm still not sure that is going to work out to be enough given that her current dose is as low as we can go without breakthrough seizures...maybe 30mg at midnight as well? I told the vet I think she would be fine with that and I said last time she seized (when she was still on 30mg), I gave her 60mg that morning and he said that was bad. Way too high at once and I should have discussed that with him before I decided to do that. But on the epi dog list I am on, I know several people who do that to stop clusters. I didn't tell him THAT though

[~Anne~]

Question for you guys, Puggles? Staffy-lover?

KC has 37.5 mg Pb 7am and 7pm................................

The best option the vet suggested, just for that night is Simon give her 30mg at 2pm (5 hours early and she will also have to be fed then) and 15mg when he gets home at midnight, then back to usual in the morning. I'm still not sure that is going to work out to be enough given that her current dose is as low as we can go without breakthrough seizures...maybe 30mg at midnight as well?

I have done this myself on the odd occassion. I usually give the full Pb dose and then give the full Kbr dose later. Pb is fairly safe to double up with (i.e. low risk of overdose) and so I can't see any problem with what you have said.

I think your Vet may be off course a little saying it is bad to double the dose like you did. Monte's Neurologist said to do exactly that if I haven't any valium to stop his seizures. She explained that Pb has a low chance of overdose and even if he had just had his Pb only a few hours again, to give it again.

If you were to do it regularly then I would say it could be dangerous becuase KC's levels wouldn't be maintained but a once off is fine IMO.

What do you think staffy-lover?

[Staffy-Lover]

On the rare occassion that i actually have a life hehehehe and i can't be home at the time for the meds i give half dose when i leave and half dose when i get home--- you have 10 hours in between the dose so i'd probaby give the three quarters at 2 and the rest when i got home.

Just a question: The morning you gave the 60mgs - was it straight after the fit or a time after?

You only double dose immediately after the fit to stop any chance of clusters. To double dose later in the day is unneccessary.

For example - my boys meds are due at 7am 7pm.

If he has a seizure at 4am i give him ONE dose then and then i give him another dose as usual at 7am. (so that is the double dose)

I wouldn't wait till 7am and just give him a double dose --

And as Puggles says PB is pretty safe so a double dose wouldn't hurt unless you were doing all the time. (it takes 1-2 weeks for a double dose to get back to normal in the blood... so if you were double dosing more then once a fortnight you might like to check that it is okay - but still i don't think it would be a drama so long as it wasn't all the time)

I hope i haven't confused you

Take care

[CaseyKay]

Just a question: The morning you gave the 60mgs - was it straight after the fit or a time after?

You only double dose immediately after the fit to stop any chance of clusters. To double dose later in the day is unneccessary.

For example - my boys meds are due at 7am 7pm.

If he has a seizure at 4am i give him ONE dose then and then i give him another dose as usual at 7am. (so that is the double dose)

I wouldn't wait till 7am and just give him a double dose --

I hope i haven't confused you

Take care

When I gave her the 60mg she had the seizure about an hour before her morning dose was due. By the time we got home (we were in the park) it was 30 minutes so I gave her 60mg around the time her dose was due, and this was 30 minutes after the seizure. Otherwise I would have done like you said you do with your boy. She seemed fine...after 30 minutes the post-ictal had gone pretty much finished and when I got home that afternoon she was happy enough.

I think the difference between my vet and yours and Puggles vet (same neurologist?) is that mine is a general vet and yours is a neurologist, because he has said a few things now that when I mentioned on here it wasn't what your neurologist suggested. E.g about giving her 30 in the morning and 45 at night because she was seizing in the morning.

It woudl be a very rare occasion I would change from the 12 hours apart schedule so I hope it is not a problem as I think I will feel more secure if she has 30 and 30 that night since the early dose is going to be 5 hours early.

Thanks for the advice!

[~Anne~]

I think the difference between my vet and yours and Puggles vet (same neurologist?) is that mine is a general vet and yours is a neurologist, because he has said a few things now that when I mentioned on here it wasn't what your neurologist suggested. E.g about giving her 30 in the morning and 45 at night because she was seizing in the morning.

Yes, we have the same neuro but different Vets.

I have found that most Vets do not have a lot of knowledge outside of the usual textbook knowledge of epilepsy. It appears to be more of a specialist kind of field. I know that I have thrown a few curlies to my Vets over the years and they have immediately researched it. If your Vet is willing to research a little and not just give stock answers then he is worth hanging onto in my books.

Does KC have clusters normally? (Sorry if you ave already said this in the thread somewhere.... I'm feeling lazy). I am wondering why you gave the extra dose.

[CaseyKay]

Yes, KC usually clusters which is why I gave her the extra Pb. The last three times she just had one seizure so I'm thinking it does something. Because besides those last three, she has clustered until I get her to the vet and onto IV valium and the seizures get closer and closer together in the cluster. Clusters scare the h*ll out of me.

This vet is the best we had, at least he sees KC as an individual and doesn't treat her as a "text-book case" (I don't think there is with epilepsy but the previous vets all have). No neurologists in New Zealand. After her last bloodowrk I talked to him for about an hour and it was really good.

I went to get new Pb prescription this morning and when I got home vet nurse had only given me 15mg ones. I went back and got 30s and then I looked on the label and it said "give one every 24 hours pm" on the 15mg and "give one every 24 hours am" on the 30mg. I mean I know better but what if that was someone new?? I rang her again and she said, "oh, are you sure, I better change that on her file then". I said "WAS that on her file??" surprised the vet had stuffed up, and she said, no I wrote that. Who knows??

[~Anne~]

Clusters scare the h*ll out of me.

Clusters are all we have ever known with Monte. It is rare for him to only have one.

We give valium as soon as we can when he starts. We were on oral valium but have now been given rectal on advice from the Neuro. Rectal works almsot immediately apparently and we don't need to ruch him anywhere. The oral way takes up to 20 minutes or more to take effect and by then he has usually had another 3 or 4.

I went to get new Pb prescription this morning and when I got home vet nurse had only given me 15mg ones. I went back and got 30s and then I looked on the label and it said "give one every 24 hours pm" on the 15mg and "give one every 24 hours am" on the 30mg. I mean I know better but what if that was someone new?? I rang her again and she said, "oh, are you sure, I better change that on her file then". I said "WAS that on her file??" surprised the vet had stuffed up, and she said, no I wrote that. Who knows??

Lucky you were on the ball.

[Staffy-Lover]

Best thing you can ever do is talk to someone else who owns an epi dog.. i think between us we actually know more then the vets - understandably because we experience it so often.

The double dosing has worked a treat for my boy aswell.. only problem is that he has to be coherent enough to give him the dose and once the FIRST seizure went for so long i rushed him to the vet.. but i am now getting rectal valium aswell.

Puggles is there a special applicator or is it just a needless syringe?

[~Anne~]

Puggles is there a special applicator or is it just a needless syringe?

Syringe with needle to draw up the valium from the vial and then we switch the needle to a long tube piece (I have forgotten the actual name) it is what they use when inserting a catheter line - about 1 - 2 inches long, very fine and bendable plastic.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Puggles

[CaseyKay]

Bumping this back up so I can find it if I need it!

KC went back to obedience class for the first time this year tonight due to me being a bit too busy. I have put her in canine good citizen class. I got asked three times how long it took me to get her so well-behaved (she was being angelic like usual...she is very quiet and well-behaved in public), I said "oh she's always been like that". One person said "oh, no hope for my dog then", so my friend said "don't believe that, it's really because she sedates her twice a day". Person said "What! You must be joking?" and I said "well, actually...". Haha.