Staffy-Lover Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 we used to give valium but it doesnt work for my boy. that's why i was suggesting the round of tablets to see if that worked for monte instead of the valium. worth a try if the valium isn't working... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 we used to give valium but it doesnt work for my boy.that's why i was suggesting the round of tablets to see if that worked for monte instead of the valium. worth a try if the valium isn't working... Yes it might be worth a go. Georgina changed us from oral valium to rectal and also suggested giving more pheno if needed but we haven't tried the additional pheno, just the rectal valium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Puggles and Staffy-lover. Quick question for you guys. KC had a seizure this morning, went about 2 minutes, copious foaming, zooming afterwards. This was about 1/2 hour before her pill was due. She is 12 kg and has been on 30mg BID for 6 weeks since a cluster. Her bloods show she is sub-therapeutic an hour before her dose is due. I went to the vet on the way to work and he gave me a couple of suggestions: 1) For a dog that clusters, a lone seizure is not too bad. If she has another one within 2 weeks, consider upping the drugs 2) If I would rather up them now or if she has another one, try 30mg 8 hours apart (this is possible because my husband works nights and I work days). 3) OR Give her 45mg BID. She has had a couple of "funny episodes", which looked sort of like seizures but more going blank sort of thing about 10 days apart over the holidays. These were also both just before her morning dose. So I am wondering about tryng the 8 hour thing as it seems to be the tail of the dose that is the problem. Also it might cause less side effects at the peak than 45mg?? What do you guys think? I am worried as she seems to be worse this time than last time we have seizures (2004). Last time she didn't have ANY seizure type activity on 30mg. I am thinking of getting an MRI to see if anything has changed with her head injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffy-Lover Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 KC, so you currently give her dose in two lots is that right? once in the morning and once at night? If not then you need to do this... split the dose so they are exactly 12 hours apart. If you already do this.... then some people do get better control by breaking the same dose (or a little higher) into three doses per day. If it is possible... if not then you might need to consider upping the dose a little. My boy is actually at the higher end of the therapeutic range as mid doesn't work for him... this means you need to be way more careful and consistent with the blood works etc. If she is only seizing without cluster every six weeks i personally wouldn't up the dose just yet. I would try the alternative if you can. If it continues then yes i would up the dose. Are u using both pb and kbr? I read studies that show pb and kbr in conjunction are more effective on some dogs then just pb alone. WE use pb and kbr together. When the blood tests are done where in the therapeutic range is your dog.. normally..? If i am reading you right and you are in the low range after fasting etc then i think maybe you do need to up the dose. sorry if this is confusing just need some answers before i can give proper advice. I hope your bub is doing well... if you need to call and talk then pm me and i will send my number to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Yes she currently gets 30mg Pb at 8am and 8pm. No KBr. She had fasting blood work done just before Christmas, one hour before her dose was due. The therapeutic range is (88-176) her reading was 79. In 2004 when she was on Pb she had two readings done that were around 70-75. Maybe we should get a peak level as well? Vet rang me just now to see if she had anymore yet (I'm at work and she is at home with hubby!) and said maybe try increasing the evening dose to 45mg and leave the morning as 30, as the morning before her dose seems to be the main problem. She gets fed in the morning as well as at night. She has no side-effects so I think we can increase a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffy-Lover Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 okay thanks, yes i would increase the meds a little as she has a fair bit of room to move and is at the lower level. if this doesnt' work or if you can't get better then 6 weeks gaps i would ask about introducing kbr with the pb. Good luck.. i hope it all works out and that you see a big gap between seizures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Hmm yes that is what I was thinking, that it is probably ok to increase as her numbers are quite low. I mean technically it would be better for her to be in the therapeutic range, which I haven't bothered with before because she never used to seize on Pb at all. The vet said there are a lot of variables with epi dogs and also whether an owner can cope better with the occasional seizure or better with their dog being slightly more sedated than they would like. 6 weeks between is fine with me. 2 weeks or less I think is way too often. But I think I will try 45mg and see if that makes her too sedated, then get some more bloods done in 6-8 weeks time. On 30mg she is fine, which means she is extremely active as usual for a 4 year old BC! No ataxia judging by how often she does a 180 turn at full speed. Also leaping off the ground as high as my head every morning. I rang my husband who said she has been fine, no more seizures, and seems "perfectly normal" even though she had a double dose this morning (of 60mg), but then he said it was raining and so they hadn't been out again and she was sleeping on the couch! So hard to say if she is more sedated until I see her myself. I will give her 45 tonight I think and go from there. If she is too sedated on that we will try 30, 3 times a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffy-Lover Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 yep you sound like you have the right ideas... and yes epi dogs are all different.. for example my boy is in the high range of meds and the neuro could not believe it because he is not at all sedated not one bit.. she said it has to be the first time that she would not be able to pick a dog on pb and kbr meds. just remember that when you increase the meds you have to give her about 2-3 weeks for it to even out and settle down because she probably will be very sedate first of all... but it tends to even out a bit so you have to give it a bit of time. if that doesn't work then yes i would suggest three time a day dosage. i agree that once every 6 wks isn't too bad if she doesn't cluster and it really does just depend on how the owner and dog cope with the seizure. my boy used to seize every two weeks and it was just too much because they are very violent now we have them much better thank goodness. just remember that pup will increase water (which means more trips to the bathroom at night) and will probably appear very hungry which you will have to watch incase of huge weight gain. I'm glad the seizures have settled !! Lets hope it is all up hill from here let us know how pup goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 A thought or two..... Monte clusters. He doesn't have just one seizure (he did tho' for the first time ever about 1 month ago.) If he has any other seizure-like activity it will be a focal only if it isn't a cluster of grand mals. The point I want to make is that there is apparently no correlation between dosing Pb and the timing of seizures. The neurologist that both staffy-lover and myself have been to with our dogs said this to me because I did exactly as you have been advised by your vet. I split Monte's dose so that the dose in the evening of Pb was higher then the dose in the a.m. because Monte always (90% of the time anyway) has his seizures in the middle of the night or early hours of the morning. She told me that this was not the best thing to do and would not be affective anyway. She did explain a little why but the info went beyond me at the time. She put his dose back to an even split but upped the Pb. Monte is also on Kbr. There is another drug that may be of assistance (and it has escaped my brain for a while....... sorry I am in holiday mode) I am unable to put Monte on it as it has to be given every 8 hours and as we all work long office hours we are not always able to dose during the day. Perhaps though this would be suitable for you tho'? Ooops... as I was typing I remembered the name - it is called Keppra and apparently is quite good and has less problems associated with it then Kbr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Hi Puggles, I think I see what you are saying about having different doses in the morning and night not really making a difference. So my plan for now is: Go to 45 mg twice a day and if she is too sedated, try 30mg three times a day. This is possible for us due to someone either being at home or if they are not at work and go out, KC generally goes too. If that doesn't work, try adding KBr maybe. She had 60mg this morning and while she seems a bit quieter than average she was still happy enough to go for a 45 minute off-lead walk this afternoon. She doesn't seem ataxic. She definately has the munchies though!! If she put on 3kg I would be *happy* because she is always very thin...she is fit and very muscly but has minimal body fat under all the fluff. She will get her dose soon and then have a nap while I take my other BC, Maddie, out jogging! Poor Maddie I think she is a bit neglected at the moment... Thanks so much you guys, it's good to think these things through with people who understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffy-Lover Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) caseyk going 45 twice a day is an extra 30mg's... this is a big jump, u are going from 60mgs to 90mgs i think the vet was thinking 15 extra mgs a day... so if you want to even it out maybe take it to 40mgs twice a day - this takes it to 80ms cause you want to get as much effectiveness on the least amount possible.. u can always go up. what do u think puggles...? Edited January 11, 2007 by Staffy-Lover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffy-Lover Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 how much does your dog weigh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 She weighs 12kg, is 48cm at the shoulder (she is underweight but extremely fit and muscly). I can only get 30mg and 15 mg pills at my vet, so maybe I should be splitting the 15mg ones. This is what the vet originally suggested when her bloods were low. I thought it would be hard to split the smaller pills which is now I think about it, why the vet suggested the 30/45 morning/night things that Puggles said your neuro didn't think made a difference. So I guess the vet was saying however you do it, go up 15mg a day, not 30. She had 45 last night and 45 this morning so maybe i will go to the pharmacy today and buy a pill splitter. That will make 37.5 twice a day, from 60 total to 75. She doesn't seem any different this morning but she did sleep very soundly from about 8pm-7am. Got up and we were *supposed* to be having a sedate off-lead walk, we live next-door to a park, and she goaded the other dog into high speed game of "chase me while I go zoomies" which I let go for a minute before calling a halt (uh-oh, I'm the fun police!). Trying not to get her too worked up at the moment so no fetch, agility, or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) I'm with staffy-lover on the big increase in his meds. It may be too high. Having said this though, Monte is around 8.5 kilos on any given day and he is on 90mgs per day split at 2 x 45mg doses but he will still cluster even at this dose. He is also on 350mg per day of Kbr split in two equal doses. I have a pill cutter and it makes life so much easier and the Kbr is a liquid in a pump bottle that dispenses 175mg per pump. Monte does the zoomies bit every night and chases Boof around the house like a maniac! He usually always gets a little agressive with Boof which is so out of the norm for him. After his zoomies session he crashes and you could put a bomb under him and he still wouldn't wake up! Edited January 11, 2007 by Puggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Right ok, I have a pill splitter and we will do 37.5 and see how we go. Fingers crossed! Kc always loves zoomies but under her terms, if Maddie tries to start it she gets charged and snapped at. Poor Madd. She is older and bigger than KC but no doubt who is the boss there. Puggles, is that Monte in your Avatar?? Very cute photo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffy-Lover Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 hmm i feel left out - where do u get these pill spliters from... i have a drama every day.. i have to cut one tablet into quarters grrrrrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 I got it from the people pharmacy (had to ask and they were behind the counter, it was $9). You put the pill in the v shaped bit and it cuts with the razor blade AND doesn't fly away and get lost. I have previously split 30mg ones, but only one of the halves was usable and the other all smashed (or lost!), that was with a naked razor blade. The 15mg ones just crumbled. She has had 37.5 tonight. My husband said he took them for a walk at lunchtime and she was "nuts" trying to get him and my other dog to play and was spinning** much more than usual He said HOW am I supposed to "keep her calm"?? When she started back on the pills again in Nov she was bit OTT for a couple of days, so I guess this increase is doing the same thing, I would have thought it would have the opposite effect. **...if I had a dollar for everytime someone asked me "why is your dog going in circles".... but if I explain the whole thing about head trauma and being blind on one side so it's a mix of vision and neuro things, people feel so sorry for her which annoys me because she is a happy girl. So now I just say "why is she spinning? because she likes to". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) Pill splitters are available everywhere staffy-lover. I have two and one is far better than the other. With all the ADHD kids out there they have become a popular accessory! *lol* Casey - yes, that is Monte in my avatar.... he is cute isn't he! Edited January 12, 2007 by Puggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SueM Posted January 14, 2007 Author Share Posted January 14, 2007 I have split wee Harveys meds into a quarter at 8am and quarter at 8pm I was finding the meds was making him a bit to sedated when having the half in the mornings, well more sedated than normal he is such a lazy bum anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaseyKay Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 (edited) Hi varicool. Sorry, I hijacked your thread Sounds like Harvey hasn't had any seizures since he has been on his meds? If so that is fantastic. Kc is not acting sedated at all much to my relief since I had to up her meds....but the vet said I should be making sure she "stays quiet". Hmmm. (I want a lazy bum dog next time). Edited January 14, 2007 by CaseyKay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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