The Dog Listener Methods

[SALTWOOD]

I attended Jan Fennells seminar yesterday and I was impressed.

She does tend to woffle on a bit but I believe the basis of what she is saying has merit.

I have now decided to buy her book and read more about it.

Would be interested to hear from anyone who has tried her methods and what success they have had.

Edited November 19, 2006 by SALTWOOD

[gsdog2]

Firstly, I would like to thank the ESS Club for organising the seminar. The organisation that went into this seminar was outstanding and your club deserve a big for the effort that went into it. There was a massive turnout and it shows how keen Brisbane (and surrounding area) people are for information.

Jan spoke well, and I agreed with about 90% of what she had to say, but I struggled with her attitude to desexing, allowing dogs on beds and not using breed/rescue as a reason for a problem (there is a difference between a Bosten Terrier and a Great Dane ). I don't know if you realised but one of the lady's she shot down during question time was in tears by the time the seminar was finished. She said she was made to feel like a fool, and Jan certainly was unnecessarily harsh. When it came to question time did you notice Jan couldn't answer all questions put to her . She walked around them, "waffled on" but didn't actually answer the question.

Edited November 19, 2006 by gsdog2

[SALTWOOD]

As I said there was quite a bit of 'waffle'. I was wanting her to cut to the chase but that didn't happen.

Like anyone who has been doing something for a long time they are always aware of the bottom line and I guess the adage 'leave them wanting more' does apply to her to a certain extent. I noticed that she sold out of her books very quickly.

I found the first half a bit boring but in a way I understand that she was laying the groundwork. After all she is selling a concept rather than training lessons. The after lunch talk was way more interesting.

Regarding the question and answer session, I didn't notice the woman you mentioned but I do agree if Jan could have been a bit calmer and more understanding of people it would have been easier to comprehend her methods. A lot of public speakers do their routine so frequently that they sometimes get a bit hard with their audience, perhaps they think they are being funny??

Having said all that, I, like you, compliment the club who organised the day on their outstanding efforts. Everything seemed to run smoothly and I loved the idea of the special seating for the 'early booked tickets'.

I notice Jans book was first published in 2000 and here it is the end of 2006 and this is the first I have heard of her. She travels all around the world speaking on this subject - was it the first time in Brisbane or Australia?? Either I am living in a bubble or we really must be isolated in Australia. I totally agree that we need more of this kind of informational seminar in Brisbane where I think it would be very well patronised.

Edited November 20, 2006 by SALTWOOD

[Rom]

Ditto, thanks to ESSCQ.

Jan was a very entertaining speaker...have to give her that. I laughed a lot.

I'd class her along the lines of Cesar Milan. She has a concept that she markets well and it has some merit, but I feel that her concept is more for the pet dog owner or owner of the dog that has specific behavioural problems rather than the competitor. When it came to questions on the 'how to's' on anything that occurs after the Amichien Bonding process, (ie loose lead walking) she didn't seem to have the detail and was somewhat vague.

I too noticed a marked change in her demeanour when it came to the question and answer session. I get the feeling that she has possibly been vigorously challenged during question and answer sessions before and she flew out on the defence, I congratulate those brave souls who dared to ask a question after the first few got trampled on. No, I didn't see the lady crying, but it doesn't surprise me. I'd thought of a tongue in cheek question that I was gonna ask for a laugh but I figured by the mood of Q&A session, all jokes were off!

Would I try the Amichien Bonding process? Absolutely! Anything that forecasts an improvement in my relationship with my dog and has no possibility of doing either of us long term harm, I'll give it a go!

[SALTWOOD]

I have already had success since yesterday and an added benefit is that it makes me feel better - like I now have some control over certain behaviours that were difficult to remedy and really annoying me.

Time will tell if it does have good long term results but when you have multiple dogs every little bit helps.

I gather that Jan is not big in the "obedience" (there's that dirty word again) side of things so it will be interesting to see what the local obedience club people that attended think!!

However, anything that helps me remain 'leader of the pack' has got to be good!!

[MaxSpots]

does anyone have a copy of the book?

it would be interesting to see if this review off Amazon is correct or not..

ie: does she get specific about the trainability of some breeds???

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Listener-Communi...iews/0060089466

For a professional dog trainer, Ms Fennel also displays a rather disturbing lack of knowledge about several dog breeds. At one point she states that it may be impossible to fully train Bull Terriers "and dogs of this type" due to their inherent "savage natures"! One gets the impression that she has been unable to train this type of dog herself and holds a grudge about it. Whatever the reason, I find it somewhat disingenuous of her to ignore the fact that other trainers have managed to train these breeds to very high standards, and blame her own failure to do so on the dogs instead of on her own methods.

In short? If you know very little about dog behaviour and have a mildly pushy dog, then this book isn't a bad buy. Certainly, applying the "Amichien bonding" advice won't hurt. It is the same type of programme as recommended by dog behaviourists the world over (you can get much of the same information for free on the internet, from Shirley Chong's website for example).

[sas]

I have 2 of her books here I purchased today for a bit of a gander, will get back to ya.

[LilBailey]

I have read her book, The second one that had a supossed step by step guide in it. a 30 day guide I think it was called. I can understand the woffle part as she seemed to do that in her book a bit, Kinda like your reading and waiting for he point but it never comes.

I have used some of her methods on my dogs but thought that some of the things she pushed on not appropiate for me. but then I guess that like all trainers take whats relivent and bank the rest for later.

I must say though the eating thing works wonders!!!

[huski]

Ditto, thanks to ESSCQ.

Jan was a very entertaining speaker...have to give her that. I laughed a lot.

I'd class her along the lines of Cesar Milan. She has a concept that she markets well and it has some merit, but I feel that her concept is more for the pet dog owner or owner of the dog that has specific behavioural problems rather than the competitor. When it came to questions on the 'how to's' on anything that occurs after the Amichien Bonding process, (ie loose lead walking) she didn't seem to have the detail and was somewhat vague.

I agree with you, that's what I found with Cesar Milan (who's book I loved). It was more of a guide, a way to understand your dog, not specific how tos. However he did state at the start of his book that it isn't a training book, which I was fine with. There are plenty of "how to" training books out there. There are a lot of trainers/dog behaviorists out there and it is hard to find one who's techniques are suited to you, it's a bit like with kids I think (some people like Supernanny, some don't).

[Nekhbet]

Some people are tailored to the low drive, pet dog market thats blossoming ...

oh FiFi wont sit

of Rexy poopy poo yaps at me when I feed it ...

plenty of yuppies willing to pay good money to get touchy feely methods.

I have alwyas been around large dogs. Like any young creature, humans included, a well rounded individual requires boundaries, discipline and rewards. Balancing them is the trick, not trying to work around your dogs. I would like to see her with a high prey drive or highly dominant animal.

[Staranais]

I'll probably be in the minority here, but I really didn't particularly like Jan Fennell's books. I didn't think they were bad or that they gave harmful advice, I just thought that they were too simplistic and way overhyped. To me, she seemed like a "one trick pony". She seemed to ascribe every problem behaviour to dominance problems, and seemed to think that most if not all canine behavioural problems could be cured if only the owner was dominant enough. In my experience, that's just not true. It's important to be a good leader to your dog, but I do think that it's overly simplistic to claim that all behavioural problems are caused by the dog owner being too weak.

I haven't been to her seminar though, just read her books. So perhaps my opinion would change if I went to her seminars? I'm not sure.

For a professional dog trainer, Ms Fennel also displays a rather disturbing lack of knowledge about several dog breeds. At one point she states that it may be impossible to fully train Bull Terriers "and dogs of this type" due to their inherent "savage natures"! One gets the impression that she has been unable to train this type of dog herself and holds a grudge about it. Whatever the reason, I find it somewhat disingenuous of her to ignore the fact that other trainers have managed to train these breeds to very high standards, and blame her own failure to do so on the dogs instead of on her own methods.

Maxspots, I recall her saying a few minor disparaging things about the nature of pitbulls and similar breeds in one of her books, but I can't remember which book it was off the top of my head. At the time I wondered if they were possibly a reflection of her own lack of achievements as a trainer - i.e. like Nekhbet said, perhaps she's only used to dealing with low drive pet dogs, and she finds it hard to deal with any dog with a strong personality, so she prefers to label them "savage" or "hard to train fully"? Anyway, I did notice the comments, and they did strike me as peculiar.

[SALTWOOD]

I am now part the way through the book and of course have been to the seminar.

My impression is that she has developed a concept for people to be able to live fairly harmoniously with their dogs in the home situation.

A great many of us that frequent Dogz Online have already been through many situations with our dogs & various dog training methods and have developed our own routines for managing our dogs, this being a mish-mash of ideas that work for us and experiences built up over the years from many sources and formed them into 'our own methods' for dog training.

Her concepts if successfully conveyed to people who have very limited experience with dogs probably are of considerable help to them and they would probably find that they benefit much more than those, like us, who are already managing fairly OK.

I find that whatever seminar I go to there is usually at least one idea that I can take away and use. Jan Fennells seminar served to remind me of some things I had forgotten to use and also made clearer some areas that I could improve upon.

You take on board what you think you can use and discard that which you can't or won't use.

If I was picking fault I would comment on her response to the question from one lady in the audience about putting a Dobe with (I think) a Boston. Jan's comment was that she wouldn't leave them alone together. Now if what she had been saying for several hours was to be believed, why would she make such a comment???

My personal experience in this area would be to say if you have any worrys about leaving certain dogs together when you are not there, then don't - but that just didn't gell with what she had previously been saying!

[Rusky]

I went to the Perth seminar

The obedience trainers there from the dog clubs, the therapy and assistance trainers and just about the entire audience loved her seminar. I found Jan Fennel to be a wonderful speaker, very funny, very interesting and a dog lover...

Jan Fennel actually does not describe herself as a trainer or the 'amichien way' as a training method which is why she does not suggest it be used with aggressive dogs, very sensible, there are fields of experts to deal with aggression.

her methods are really

'how to live happiy with your dog'

nice manners but it is not a training programme, it is the foundation and if everyone who had a pup behaved as she suggested towards our dogs then life would be wonderful.

Regarding her statement about breeds, I know different breeds are different, she was saying "a dog is a dog is a dog" breeds do have differences but they are all dogs and will react to her suggestions in an identical way, it is basic dog communication. I assumed she meant it as in

'a human is a human ' we all have the same needs, food, shelter, family or friends but we are all differnt too. I thought she explained that very well

"where would you be right now if you didn't know where your next ,meal was coming from" human or dog... very basic needs.

I read one of her books but really she is a fantastic speaker and has an amazing way of helping people understand.

I have watched the DVD and her personality does not shine in that either but it is a good DVD for anyone to gain an understanding of dog.

[gsdog2]

Regarding her statement about breeds, I know different breeds are different, she was saying "a dog is a dog is a dog" breeds do have differences but they are all dogs and will react to her suggestions in an identical way, it is basic dog communication. I assumed she meant it as in

'a human is a human ' we all have the same needs, food, shelter, family or friends but we are all differnt too. I thought she explained that very well

I understand what you're saying and I agree. But, dogs have been breed for specific purposes and therefore have specific traits. During question time if a person mentioned the breed of their dog Jan would shoot them down, saying that breed had nothing to do with it. As you know I have GSD's and a Goldie and yes, mostly they are the same, but there are still differences between the two breeds. I would have thought it was an important piece of information when asked a question, specifically when you have a number of dogs that are of different breeds ie. Boston and Dobe.

[Rusky]

During question time if a person mentioned the breed of their dog Jan would shoot them down, saying that breed had nothing to do with it

It would depend on the question. Do you remember the specific questions? We didn't have many questions in Perth probably because the clubs all use positive training as do the therapy and assistance people.

I wish there had been more questions from the floor but really everyone wants a nice well mannered dog at home and that is the basis of her work not formal training for any specific need. She announced to us that she was now going to be involved at Battersea and was really looking forward to the challenge. I hope her involvement and testing will result in the fearful dogs who have been treated so badly getting a second chance.

Dog breeds have been developed to provide needed traits such as herding, guarding, retrieving and sitting on your lap to keep you warm, plus many others but essentially they are all dogs. I personally don't believe that any breed strays from basic requirements.

I really liked her use of the phrase 'multi pedigree' nicer than mutt or mongrel or even bitzer. I have stolen the phrase, I am sure she won't mind.

[Rom]

Here Tis:

"Breeds like the pit bull, for instance, were raised specifically for the purpose of fighting - called upon to do so, they draw on that savage nature to the full. My method cannot remove these basic instincts from any dog, whatever its breed. What it can do, however, is allow people to manage their pets so that the confrontations that bring out this aggressive nature never takes place."

Gotta give the lady kudos for being honest about saying what she can't help, but did she have to mention a breed? Isn't the above the same as saying that any dog that has a low threshold to a trigger to a specific selectively bred for drive cannot be helped by the method?

[Lacey13]

I was given her book 2\3 Xmas ago, read it and re-read it and as a puppy instructor I love it and share the knowledge with my classes. I attended the recent Sydney seminar (with about 100 + others). My view was that if you'd read the book and had an understanding of where she was coming from you had a much clearer picture of things. Some attending seminar, who had not read her book, were highly sceptical and some thought she was "theatrical" in her performance.

I agree there was "waffle" and some thinigs were hard to string together but she is about behaviour and consequence of action for the dog. We are the ones who have to be in control and need to establish that with our dogs which, for many including me, is much easier said than done. I hate ignoring my dogs on my return home - but her method works. I don't have dogs barking and squealing as I get in the door or jumping all over me as I once did. I have dogs who warn me when someone comes to the door but when they are acknowledged in a quiet manner they settle and relax. Their past "unwelcome" behaviour has changed as a direct result of following her simple rules. I've since bought and watched her DVD and will continue to promote her methods as I believe in them.

People, its all about choices and for a lot of us the Jan Fennell method is our choice. Good luck with whatever method you choose, as long as its kind to our companions!.

[Greybabies]

I thought is was great BUT lost a little faith in the end.

Did she not say that, the leader had to be cool, calm, collected and in control in any situation, a true leader keeps their head when all around is loosing theirs!!! I think she lost it a bit at question time. There was a lady standing beside me, when a few people approached her after the questions, this poor lady asked a simple question and the response from Jan took me by surprise, she actually threw a chair on the ground in an irate state and started ranting to this poor women, using the four legs of the chair to make a point

Have started to use her method and I must admit that my guys are a lot calmer and better behaved.

[SALTWOOD]

Well this week I have been using some of the ideas that I got from the seminar and from the book and as I hadn't heard of her before I went to the seminar my overall opinion would have to be that there is something in what she is saying. It's not all new but I like the concept.

Must admit I haven't finished reading the book completely as work has got in the way so there will be areas that I am not that proficient at yet!!

I have had good success with 3 out of 4 dogs in different areas.

The 4th dog will be a hard nut to crack I am afraid, but I have had success with a few small things so haven't given up hope yet!!

I particularly like the procedure for recalling a barking dog as I have one that is a fence runner. It is much easier to reward a dog for coming when called than it is trying to chase him to stop his bad behaviour. So that was a plus and worth it just to learn that one!!

I am thinking of getting the DVD to show to my OH - does anyone know if it is exactly the same as the book????

[sas]

I don't think her methods are anything new, they're methods I've read about before from another trainer in the UK.

It's a good refresher book.

What was the question the lady asked that she got upset about?

Edited November 24, 2006 by sas