Sheepwork Commands

[kylieandpossum]

hmm my post went twice for some reason, sorry about that ;)

[jesomil]

An example would be teaching a dog to run a fenceline on an outrun. Their outrun is done in relation to the fence, rather than the sheep. I always wonder what those dogs do in a real situation when there is no fence? I watched my breeder send one of her dogs on an outrun on the weekend. The dog could not see the sheep and set off according to the direction she was told, trusting her handler that she would find the sheep. I have seen her do this many times, it is beautiful to watch her go out & then see her adjust as she spots the sheep.

Another thing I wonder about is power. Many trial dogs seem to be lacking in power & I have even heard triallers discuss whether they have gone too far in their breeding and bred too much of the power out. There is a vast difference between working 3 flighty sheep in a small arena to pushing 3 stubborn ewes through a gate. I guess it is the dogs ability to read the sheep and adjust which should enable them to do both.

I see what you mean although you are referring to 3 sheep trials and 3 sheep dogs. I only have experience in yard trials which are based so closely on real work so i dont think there is a problem. But i can see what you mean if people are specifically breeding 3 sheep dogs.

[jesomil]

Kavik, it depends alot on what strengths your dog has as what it will be most suited to be trained for.

Some dogs are not suited to yard trials and others are not suited to 3 sheep. It depends on the dogs breeding.

You are going to have alot of fun along the way though.

[jesomil]

do you guys have your dogs in the city, as pets as well? what do you do, how do you treat your dogs at home, to help with that relationship aspect. for me that relationship is everything. if she listens to me off sheep , then she listens to me on sheep. how do you handle that?

Not entirely sure what you mean but i will have a go. I dont do anything special to help the relationship.

He is my special boy and i adore him but if you give him an inch he will take a mile so i always have to keep on top of his training and dont let him get away with anything.

We do live in suburbia but are lucky in that he gets to work stock most days so that really helps.

[kylieandpossum]

do you guys have your dogs in the city, as pets as well? what do you do, how do you treat your dogs at home, to help with that relationship aspect. for me that relationship is everything. if she listens to me off sheep , then she listens to me on sheep. how do you handle that?

Not entirely sure what you mean but i will have a go. I dont do anything special to help the relationship.

He is my special boy and i adore him but if you give him an inch he will take a mile so i always have to keep on top of his training and dont let him get away with anything.

We do live in suburbia but are lucky in that he gets to work stock most days so that really helps.

yeah thats pretty much what i mean, just the not getting away with anything....i cant quite bring myself to treat her like my dad used to treat his, tied up to its kennel unless its working. i know most farmers and even triallers (i do yard dog stuff too so they are mostly farmers) who are what we might call harsh with their dogs, you know they dont fuss over them or play with them, they really only relate to them when theyre working. they're well looked after and everything but they dont get to come inside and lie at my feet when its blowing a scorching norwesterly like today! training wise she gets away with nothing - she walks beautifully on lead and off, comes when called etc etc etc, but she does get free play time and interaction with other dogs, and i think sometimes that its those things that will keep us from really competing at a top level. which is fine, thats the trade off you make i guess.

so another question. if you have kelpies that are hard and strong minded do they also try to work at speed or are they naturally slower, more stalky? we had some real hyper ones on the farm but we were talking to a grazier out west a couple of weeks ago and he said they dont tend to opt for koolies anymore because they put too much heat on the sheep. this is certainly the biggest issue we've had to work with.

so this would be a breed thing? i hate generalising about breeds, it seems weird to me that stuff like personality or working style can be transmitted genetically.

what do you think?

[jesomil]

but she does get free play time and interaction with other dogs, and i think sometimes that its those things that will keep us from really competing at a top level. which is fine, thats the trade off you make i guess.

I can guarantee that these things will not stop you from competing at top levels in yard trials. Why do you think these things would be a problem? Yes, there are the old dog men that treat them harsh and dont pat etc but alot of the youngies have their dogs inside with them and they win repeatedly. And these are working dogs too. The thing that will stop someone competing at top levels will more likely be the trainer and their methods. Oh and the dogs ability/breeding.

so another question. if you have kelpies that are hard and strong minded do they also try to work at speed or are they naturally slower, more stalky

Definately try and work at speed. Their tendancy is to go in hard and fast and be very pushy. It takes training and maturity to settle them down and to keep them off the sheep.

so this would be a breed thing? i hate generalising about breeds, it seems weird to me that stuff like personality or working style can be transmitted genetically.

I think working style is definately transmitted genetically. I think you can generalise about working breeds to some extent although there are always particular lines that will differ.

For example, when you go to a 3 sheep trial it will be mainly borders, a yard trial will be mainly kelpies, therefore those breeds have traits that are more suited one way or the other. But a soft kelpie will not be suited to yard trials just as a pushy border will not be suited to 3 sheep.

I would be interested to lure some more sheepdog people in here for more opinions though as my knowledge is limited on other breeds.

Edited November 21, 2006 by jesomil

[kylieandpossum]

I can guarantee that these things will not stop you from competing at top levels in yard trials. Why do you think these things would be a problem? Yes, there are the old dog men that treat them harsh and dont pat etc but alot of the youngies have their dogs inside with them and they win repeatedly. And these are working dogs too. The thing that will stop someone competing at top levels will more likely be the trainer and their methods. Oh and the dogs ability/breeding.

oh well thats good to know! im not aiming to be really competitive, like i said its more for the sake of the journey. i guess when we only get to work sheep every couple of weeks i worry that i am too 'soft' on her in between times, like let her wander around the house, play with other dogs, and if this affects her "respect" for me. i use that word cautiously cos i dont think they really know 'respect' in the way we do. i try and be consistent all the time tho, when i ask for something it has to happen, always follow through on a command, doesnt go in and out of doors uninvited etc.

Definately try and work at speed. Their tendancy is to go in hard and fast and be very pushy. It takes training and maturity to settle them down and to keep them off the sheep.

also good to know. i am a little envious of people who naturally have quiet dogs but my instructor says its better to have a wild one you can bring back down. she has calmed down a lot since we first started and always starts soft now whereas she used tobe a bull at a gate, so to speak.

can i ask what techniques you use to keep them off the sheep?

I think working style is definately transmitted genetically. I think you can generalise about working breeds to some extent although there are always particular lines that will differ.

For example, when you go to a 3 sheep trial it will be mainly borders, a yard trial will be mainly kelpies, therefore those breeds have traits that are more suited one way or the other. But a soft kelpie will not be suited to yard trials just as a pushy border will not be suited to 3 sheep

I would be interested to lure some more sheepdog people in here for more opinions though as my knowledge is limited on other breeds.

yes this is my experience too, definately the borders are more prevelant in the open spaces. given her tendency to work 'high' yard work is better for my koolie because shes strong enough but i can still contain her.

would be interesting to hear others experience, for sure.

[jesomil]

Hey, have we gone really OT now Oops.

like let her wander around the house, play with other dogs, and if this affects her "respect" for me. i use that word cautiously cos i dont think they really know 'respect' in the way we do. i try and be consistent all the time tho, when i ask for something it has to happen, always follow through on a command, doesnt go in and out of doors uninvited etc.

Gee, my dog opens the back door and comes in when he wants and runs at a huge off lead dog park every day with lots of dogs. That is not going to affect their working ability for yard trials. The main thing is that they always know their place. If i tell him out, he lets himself back out the back door, if a dog is being strange at the park, he drops when told etc. As long as they know their place and know that you are the boss always and will always do as they are told.

I read a great line on here the other day but i dont know who said it. It is "If you treat your dog like a human, they will treat you like a dog". I love it. So true.

also good to know. i am a little envious of people who naturally have quiet dogs but my instructor says its better to have a wild one you can bring back down. she has calmed down a lot since we first started and always starts soft now whereas she used tobe a bull at a gate, so to speak.

can i ask what techniques you use to keep them off the sheep?

Its much easier to settle a full on dog than it is to bring up a quieter dog. I would prefer the full on dog any day for yard trials.

To keep a dog off sheep, i start in the round yard and use the rake to keep it off. It learns that it will get hassled if coming in too close. I eventually add a "get out" command to this.

In the paddock I will throw in lots of stops if getting in too close so the dog knows that if it comes in too close, i will keep stopping it. That tends to settle the dog down.

I think maturity and lots of work helps. If a dog only sees sheep every now and then, then it is going to be excited and will take a while to settle.

There are a few methods of doing this, but i have found this method has worked for me.

yes this is my experience too, definately the borders are more prevelant in the open spaces. given her tendency to work 'high' yard work is better for my koolie because shes strong enough but i can still contain her.

would be interesting to hear others experience, for sure.

I too have noticed that alot of Kelpies tend to be more forceful and pushy so they tend to do well in the yards. I have never seen a Koolie work or heard any sheepdog people talk about them. There are a few down at the dog park though. What are their strengths? What were they bred to do?

Can you post piccys or is this going too far off topic?

[Mooper]

Can she post piccies? I reckon she can!

Heck, I've probably even got piccies of Poss working. Although when Jack and I went to Binalong last, we were still in the round yard, and will be for some time Jack has a bit of a thick head ... and his handler isn't much better :D

[kylieandpossum]

Can she post piccies? I reckon she can!

Heck, I've probably even got piccies of Poss working. Although when Jack and I went to Binalong last, we were still in the round yard, and will be for some time Jack has a bit of a thick head ... and his handler isn't much better

now its my turn :D

yes i have heaps of pix of miss poss! will see if i can upload some...i will need to do some resizing first so will post them in a bit...

in the meantime, i am very glad to hear what you have said as i basically use the same methods with possum, i have a short stick with a plastic bag on the end that we used to get her attention at first, to bring her eyes up and off the sheep. that was pretty funny, the first time she saw it she attacked the bag. (i dont use it anymore, revs her up too much) it took some persistance in terms of blocking her up constantly - she used to try and get me to run around with her, which i have tried very hard to break. the stop/drop works too, when its too much i just shut it all down. and i do notice if i slip up on things at home, am too fussy over her, or let her set her own agenda, i will pay for it in the sheep ring.

poss is actually the only other koolie i know of doing yard work, michelle and chance are the other ones up here. chance is a big solid boy, a typical short coat merle. possum is a long haired solid, but her red merle is starting to come through. -shes only just turned 2. robert (instructor) says she works a bit more like a collie, i think not as 'sweet' as a kelpie would, if you know what i mean, but she has developed some really nice moves.

the full-on-ness gets tiring after a while but everyone says its a good thing so....

pix to follow

[kylieandpossum]

Hey, have we gone really OT now Oops.

Gee, my dog opens the back door and comes in when he wants and runs at a huge off lead dog park every day with lots of dogs. That is not going to affect their working ability for yard trials. The main thing is that they always know their place. If i tell him out, he lets himself back out the back door, if a dog is being strange at the park, he drops when told etc. As long as they know their place and know that you are the boss always and will always do as they are told.

I read a great line on here the other day but i dont know who said it. It is "If you treat your dog like a human, they will treat you like a dog". I love it. So true.

hmm yes so true says kylie, slapping self on forehead.

I too have noticed that alot of Kelpies tend to be more forceful and pushy so they tend to do well in the yards. I have never seen a Koolie work or heard any sheepdog people talk about them. There are a few down at the dog park though. What are their strengths? What were they bred to do?

ah koolie breeding. well thats a thread in itself. there are some people who are very thingy about koolies, as in getting their history right, trying to make them into a recognised breed, but they have been here for such a long time (german settlers bought them to SA in the 1820s, and they are related to the german tyger, or the blue merle collie). i dont really care about any of that, i do think they are pretty much a mix between BCs and kelpies tho. strengths: very strong will, very intelligent, great deal of common sense and self-sufficiency , really super people affectionate, eager to please, endless work ethic. possum doesnt sulk, but has a certain level of nervous tension/anxiety. she was other dog aggresseive, mostly to big dogs, but we have almost socialised that out of her. weaknesses - working wise a bit too headstrong for me (hence the perpetual struggle) but not too much for my instructor (he said shes not enough dog for him and too much dog for me but hes a professional). movement wise, good balance but pushes in too hard, have to always reset the bubble/buffer. we didnt think she would want to head the sheep but she has stepped up in that dept as she has gotten older and is more willing to confront them. in general, like a kelpie on caffeine!

working on pix...

sorry for being so OT!!

[Kavik]

When out on walks and we see birds he will start to work them and then stop and hold his position. Would it be OK to use this situation to introduce the 'Stop' command?

[Mooper]

That's what I'm doing in the backyard with Jack, Kavik. So I hope it's OK!

Mind you, Jack doesn't generalise well. So we're probably doomed, regardless

Edited November 22, 2006 by Mooper

[Kavik]

I can't wait to meet Jack, he sounds like a hoot!

Wait till you meet Kaos :D The people at obedience think I am mad to have Kelpies. They think they are mental. I wouldn't have it any other way