Sheepwork Commands

[Vickie]

with the recall thing, ive just been taught to not use the same command for two different things and vickie was saying she uses 'that'll do" to reset her dog to keep working but also to stop working completely and leave the area. obviously if that works thats awesome, id hazard a guess that there is something different in vickies voice when she says that'll do that refers to "that'll do for that move" vs "that'll do we're going home now". i was just wondering that if you taught a dog a 'stop' command that actually meant 'stop for a minute while we move over here" and you rewarded the dog with sheep for that, the dog should technically think (of course i have no idea what dogs think ) whenever i hear that word we are going to work sheep again. if you then use that same word for "we're leaving now" the dog might think "no we're not, we still have work to do". so to me thats not really a recall right? so i use "stay there" for "keep doing what youre doing" (whether its moving or not moving), drop when i want everything to STOP completely (regardless of what happens after that. if im going to use that and then keep working i need to give a good break in between so the dog doesnt think DROP actually means keep working - again like what vickie said with the 'steady') - and then when we're all done its jsut Possum Come and walk away and she follows.

does that make sense?

Just to clarify..."That'll do", means come away from the sheep to me, then I will choose what we do next. It was only in the very beginning that I resent her as a reward for coming more often than not. Like I said, I'm not saying this is right (nor am I recommending it), it has worked for us, I just know some people think it's a bad idea. I guess she knows what happens next by whether I walk away or resend, but it still means come to me regardless.

[kylieandpossum]

Just to clarify..."That'll do", means come away from the sheep to me, then I will choose what we do next. It was only in the very beginning that I resent her as a reward for coming more often than not. Like I said, I'm not saying this is right (nor am I recommending it), it has worked for us, I just know some people think it's a bad idea. I guess she knows what happens next by whether I walk away or resend, but it still means come to me regardless.

oh i think its a great idea, youve obviously done it right because it works - she knows what it means regardless of what happens after now, the behaviour is so 'conditioned' she does it regardless of the 'reward'. thats the way ive seen it work and theres something about the way "that'll do" rolls off the tongue that it just means what it sounds like! and i imagine its not like when you walk out of the area completely she gets no reward - a good girl, a big pat, a treat, those are all rewards. just at the beginning i know for myself nothing was the same reward as sheep! less so now.

oh and i forgot to say the other thing i do to signal 'its all over' is just put my hand on her head - sometimes when we're done and ive asked her to drop, i go over, touch her head and say possum come and that seems to break the connection with the sheep and put her back on me and she walks out (looking over her shoulder at the sheep of course )

[jesomil]

having said that i dont have words on my sides because she does them anyway and i just turn my shoulder AWAY from the direction i want her to go in so she rocks back and changes direction. that one i cant explain in words,

I would say most working bred dogs do this naturally. They go back and forth in arcs bringing the sheep to you.

This wont work in a trial situation where you need side commands when you need the dog to work off balance. How would you stand in the middle and direct the dog to move the sheep around you in a circle? How about when in a paddock and you need to move the sheep in another direction that is not straight towards you, how do you do this without side commands?

Just to clarify..."That'll do", means come away from the sheep to me, then I will choose what we do next

This is always what i have seen it to mean and i think it is a good idea.

I think as a handler, you have the right to call the dog to you any time and for any reason and it should be the one command. It should do it because it is told to, not because it may or may not get rewarded.

[kylieandpossum]

I would say most working bred dogs do this naturally. They go back and forth in arcs bringing the sheep to you.

This wont work in a trial situation where you need side commands when you need the dog to work off balance. How would you stand in the middle and direct the dog to move the sheep around you in a circle? How about when in a paddock and you need to move the sheep in another direction that is not straight towards you, how do you do this without side commands?

well like i said im not an expert and can only talk about what my dog does and what works for me. and i do yard dog stuff so i dont often stand in the middle, its usually about getting her to move them in and out of small spaces and then the open paddock stuff we're either working one side of them each from behind or she just naturally goes round then until theyre bunched up and brings them in depending on where i put myself.

Just to clarify..."That'll do", means come away from the sheep to me, then I will choose what we do next

This is always what i have seen it to mean and i think it is a good idea.

I think as a handler, you have the right to call the dog to you any time and for any reason and it should be the one command. It should do it because it is told to, not because it may or may not get rewarded.

well in an ideal world maybe! but even the very best working handlers i know have had to find a way to get the dog to WANT to do what you want it to do, or at the very least to get it to understand whats required. they dont understand the meaning of words unless theyve been shown the associated behaviour was all i was trying to say. i think we were talking about 'training' - the OP was about how to 'teach' things to a dog that may not have always worked sheep or has been previously trained in different ways. most dog training is reward based in some way, if the dog does the right thing it gets paid (whether thats with a treat or in my case with being allowed to work). the OP was talking about having a recall in the face of competing motivators so i suspect a 'reward' may help with that. vickie was saying she used work itself as a reward but the OP was asking how to stop the dog from working - or from self-rewarding basically...

anyway, i think we might just be splitting hairs now, cos i think we're basically talking about the same thing. unless im missing something.

editted for punctuation!

Edited November 20, 2006 by kylieandpossum

[Vickie]

Sorry Kavik, I guess I led the discussion astray a bit.

To bring it back on track...here is how things were explained to me by someone I respect & admire:

A stop can be initially taught 2 ways

one is to physically block the dog from getting to the sheep & putting a command on it

two is to use the dogs instinct to stop naturally & put a command on it.

I was taught & used method two. I think this method obviously depends on the natural instinct & talent of the dog to work. The way it was shown to me was to get the dog in a position to fetch the sheep to you & back into the corner. The dog should naturally slow & stop because there is nowhere else to take the sheep if they are hardwired to fetch them to you. As they are stopping, you give the command. Obviously the more instinct they have the more likely they are to do this. (LOL, I know it works b/c I used it on a 16 week old, unplanned, first time on sheep, escapee in a paddock about a month ago)

Then...there comes a time when the dog should be expected to stop regardless of whether they feel it is the rigt thing to do or not. That is when I was told you need to make sure it happens, beacuse by this time they know the command. This can be hard if they have a lot of instinct, as at some point your command needs to override their instinct.

I guess it's the same with side commands. It is easy to get a dog to go around whichever way you want if they have a strong sense of balance in the beginning, just by where you step or by raising your arm/rake & then putting a command on it. But again there comes a time when this is not enough and they will need to go a direction that goes against their instinct. I have had a hard time with Trim & off balance flanks. She has a lot of instinct & I let her balance way too long before asking for off balance.

Like I said, these are not my methods, but hopefully they accurately describe what I have been taught. Lots of people don't use instinct to teach commands & just make teh dog do it physically. I wanted to use her instinct, it just makes more sense to me. I guess it's kind of like training/teaching the behaviour as step one & proofing it as step two.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Vickie

[Kavik]

I think I need to watch more dogs work sheep so I have a better idea of what they do and what balance is and looks like. I need a better idea of what I am working with and what it is supposed to look like. Teaching the dog to stop using instinct makes sense, but that means there really isn't much I can do without sheep.

[dasha]

I think as a handler, you have the right to call the dog to you any time and for any reason and it should be the one command. It should do it because it is told to, not because it may or may not get rewarded.

well in an ideal world maybe! but even the very best working handlers i know have had to find a way to get the dog to WANT to do what you want it to do, or at the very least to get it to understand whats required. they dont understand the meaning of words unless theyve been shown the associated behaviour was all i was trying to say.

IMO in the REAL world the dog is still required to obey a command. It is not a matter of whether the dogs wants to or not. Good sheepdog triallers have their dogs trained to be receptive and obedient. The handler has read the rule book and knows what is required of a working dog in trials. There is no room for a dog to decide it doesn't want to.

Left means left no matter what the dog thinks when you get to the higher levels. Maybe in the level your dog is at, you still need to let your dog decide things in order to gain confidence or something but when you are in a timed event and your are at the pen gate ready to shut it against the clock, the dog moves exactly where you ask it not wait for it to head them and then push them back out the gate!

I agree with Jesomil that you have the right to call your dog to you at any time and the dog is to oblige. This is in any situation not just around sheep. Reward or not a command is a command in my books. If the dog is trained and knows the command it knows the behaviour required.

Vickie, Trim seems to have a very good understanding of her commands and is very obedient. I think the methods you have used have worked well. We all know every dog is different and things that may work with one dog may not be good for another. If it works for your dog it is the right thing to do

Kavik, what sory of sheep trialling sport are you looking at getting in to with your dog?? If you are wanting watch dogs work sheep to learn, I would advise you watch some of the older more experienced triallers and watch how the dogs perform and what kind of precision you need in the commands. If you are interested in yard work, it is best to travel to the trials and watch so you know the end result you are aiming for. Likewise for 3 sheep work. There is a Short course trial on this weekend at Erskine Park if you wanted to watch some very experienced triallers (and some not so experienced) to give you an idea of working dogs and different styles.

Edited November 20, 2006 by dasha

[kylieandpossum]

Left means left no matter what the dog thinks when you get to the higher levels. Maybe in the level your dog is at, you still need to let your dog decide things in order to gain confidence or something but when you are in a timed event and your are at the pen gate ready to shut it against the clock, the dog moves exactly where you ask it not wait for it to head them and then push them back out the gate!

I agree with Jesomil that you have the right to call your dog to you at any time and the dog is to oblige. This is in any situation not just around sheep. Reward or not a command is a command in my books. If the dog is trained and knows the command it knows the behaviour required.

you know i never said a dog shouldnt come when you call it and im getting a little frustrated. and i also made it quite clear that my dog comes everytime i call it. the OP asked about her dog that is new to sheep and didnt want to come away so a discussion started about words/training. you said yourself the dog needs to be trained to do it, my dog is, vickies dog is. even with all the instinct in the world we still had to work on things. we used different methods to get there, thats what the discussion was about. my dog DOES move where i want her to, but that didnt happen overnight, we were talking about different ways of making that happen thats all. feeling a little "picked on" now

Edited November 20, 2006 by kylieandpossum

[Mooper]

Reading this, I think I'm one of those people who is guilty of saying "stop" and "steady" when that is what I *want* Jack to do. Rather than shaping his behaviour when that's essentially what he's doing already.

So this morning while I hung out the washing, I noticed that he was stalking birds in the backyard. When he walked slowly and steadily, I said "good boy" and he looked at me with a wag of the tail (but no idea why he was a good boy!). This happened another three or four times. Tomorrow I think I'll be armed with clicker and treats, and we'll see how we go from there.

I also told him he was good when he came to a standing stop. He never got the hang of the stand for examination in obedience (he always sits automatically) so I'll be chuffed if I can get him to understand a stop.

We'll keep working on this Off-sheep because we're not likely to get to herding again until March.

P.S. good to see you're up to 38 posts, Kylie. Are you addicted to DOL yet?

[kylieandpossum]

Reading this, I think I'm one of those people who is guilty of saying "stop" and "steady" when that is what I *want* Jack to do. Rather than shaping his behaviour when that's essentially what he's doing already.

So this morning while I hung out the washing, I noticed that he was stalking birds in the backyard. When he walked slowly and steadily, I said "good boy" and he looked at me with a wag of the tail (but no idea why he was a good boy!). This happened another three or four times. Tomorrow I think I'll be armed with clicker and treats, and we'll see how we go from there.

I also told him he was good when he came to a standing stop. He never got the hang of the stand for examination in obedience (he always sits automatically) so I'll be chuffed if I can get him to understand a stop.

We'll keep working on this Off-sheep because we're not likely to get to herding again until March.

P.S. good to see you're up to 38 posts, Kylie. Are you addicted to DOL yet?

sounds like a very good method mooper! i use the bird chasing/going mad around the hose stuff at home as well to practice the 'stay there'. it really does work!

as for DOL, yes well...its a nice distraction from what i should be doing. i think i need to get a thicker skin tho. i forgot how anonymous forums can get a bit... um... heated sometimes!!!

[jesomil]

Sorry if you are feeling picked on. Its not meant to be that way, except i guess you have done more posts on this thread about methods so we are just asking you more questions. No hard feelings. ;)

I love herding discussions and want to see more.

I guess we all have to remember that we have different dogs and different methods. Some of us are are aiming to play around with sheep for fun, which is great and some of us are aiming to win trials. So some methods will not work for winning trials but that is not what everyone is after.

Just as long as the OP knows that there are lots of different people with different experience levels on here. Everyone has different ideas.

[kylieandpossum]

Sorry if you are feeling picked on. Its not meant to be that way, except i guess you have done more posts on this thread about methods so we are just asking you more questions. No hard feelings.

I love herding discussions and want to see more.

I guess we all have to remember that we have different dogs and different methods. Some of us are are aiming to play around with sheep for fun, which is great and some of us are aiming to win trials. So some methods will not work for winning trials but that is not what everyone is after.

Just as long as the OP knows that there are lots of different people with different experience levels on here. Everyone has different ideas.

its ok, im still working out how to deal with the whole forum thing and i have a tendency to take things personally at the best of times, so ill just be getting over that now ;) i really enjoy the discussion too, its so hard to put in words something like herding technique but i love talking about it anyway. whcih my instructor hates cos he says i just have to 'feeeeeel it'.

keep talking and i'll just listen for a while

[jesomil]

I guess a point too is that we all have different breeds.

Kelpies are generally yard dogs. Very pushy, forceful and full of themselves. Not a timid or nervous bone in their body. (although their are some lines which are more paddocky)

Therefore my commands and methods are suited to a hard, full on dog, whereas others methods may be more suited to a more sensitive dog.

So i think you have so use whatever method suits your and your dogs personality that works for you.

[TigerJack]

i really enjoy the discussion too, its so hard to put in words something like herding technique but i love talking about it anyway. whcih my instructor hates cos he says i just have to 'feeeeeel it'.

hehehe - yep should see the look on his face every time Kylie demands the 'theory.'

Kelpies are generally yard dogs. Very pushy, forceful and full of themselves. Not a timid or nervous bone in their body. (although their are some lines which are more paddocky)

This description fits my own Kelpie for sure but her brother works quite differently. He likes more distance.

[Vickie]

keep talking and i'll just listen for a while ;)

Sorry you are feeling picked on. FWIW, I don't think anyone is picking on anyone, I think people are just using the discussion to justify their own beliefs & methods, based on what they have been taught.

Please...keep talking, listening is no fun at all .

This is general (not directed at you K&P)

In a sense, I agree with Jesomil, what you do & want will depend on what your goals are. However, my goal is neither trialling nor training to have fun. My goal is to attempt to do justice to my dogs potential (LOL, although it will probably take me 3-5 dogs to realistically do this, given my status as a beginner). I don't think some methods of training for trials necessarily bring out the best in a dog, nor do they make them suitable for real work. There are plenty of successful triallers around whose methods I do not aspire to. Maybe I am naive but I believe that if a dog is trained correctly, it shouldn't make a difference what they are being trained for. I also think that if people start to train specifically for trialling, it is inevitable that they will also start to breed specifically for trialling & this can lead to the demise of certain breeds (or watering down of certain desirable traits). Right now, in Australia my breed exists in 3 different forms and as time goes by the gap between them will widen. I think this is very unfortunate as IMO iwas perfect as it was.

LOL, there is my inexperienced philosophy for the day. Pick on me if you like

Edited November 21, 2006 by Vickie

[jesomil]

LOL, there is my inexperienced philosophy for the day. Pick on me if you like

;) Excellent !! I was feeling nervous about asking any more questions.

I just think it is interesting to learn how others perceive sheep dog training and what they do. You can always learn something from everyone.

These questions are asked in a completely friendly non judgemental way -

I don't think some methods of training for trials necessarily bring out the best in a dog, nor do they make them suitable for real work.

Interesting thought. How do you think it would make them unsuitable for real work?

I also think that if people start to train specifically for trialling, it is inevitable that they will also start to breed specifically for trialling & this can lead to the demise of certain breeds (or watering down of certain desirable traits)

I would have thought that the majority of pups sold go to working properties whereas only a very few would actually trial. I have never heard of anyone breeding for trialling. Trialling is an avenue to show off your breedings skills. There would never be a big enough market to breed only trialling dogs.

Right now, in Australia my breed exists in 3 different forms and as time goes by the gap between them will widen. I think this is very unfortunate as IMO iwas perfect as it was

Wow, i didnt know there was a third. I know of the show line and working line. Which is the other??

[Vickie]

These questions are asked in a completely friendly non judgemental way -

LOL, don't worry, I'm pretty thick skinned. These are not things I have come up with, they are concepts that already exist that I happen to agree with.

I don't think some methods of training for trials necessarily bring out the best in a dog, nor do they make them suitable for real work.

Interesting thought. How do you think it would make them unsuitable for real work?

An example would be teaching a dog to run a fenceline on an outrun. Their outrun is done in relation to the fence, rather than the sheep. I always wonder what those dogs do in a real situation when there is no fence? I watched my breeder send one of her dogs on an outrun on the weekend. The dog could not see the sheep and set off according to the direction she was told, trusting her handler that she would find the sheep. I have seen her do this many times, it is beautiful to watch her go out & then see her adjust as she spots the sheep.

Another thing I wonder about is power. Many trial dogs seem to be lacking in power & I have even heard triallers discuss whether they have gone too far in their breeding and bred too much of the power out. There is a vast difference between working 3 flighty sheep in a small arena to pushing 3 stubborn ewes through a gate. I guess it is the dogs ability to read the sheep and adjust which should enable them to do both.

Many of the triallers I see are very mechanical in the way they train & they do not allow the dog to make choices. I understand that dogs need to be obedient, but how can they be trusted to work out of sight if they are not able to make choices? Isn't the ability to make those choices based on their instinct part of what makes them a good sheepdog? If a dog needs to be micromanaged in a 3 sheep trial & is then bred from for a few generations, how do we know that this ability is still there? unless it is tested in a real situation?

I also think that if people start to train specifically for trialling, it is inevitable that they will also start to breed specifically for trialling & this can lead to the demise of certain breeds (or watering down of certain desirable traits)

I would have thought that the majority of pups sold go to working properties whereas only a very few would actually trial. I have never heard of anyone breeding for trialling. Trialling is an avenue to show off your breedings skills. There would never be a big enough market to breed only trialling dogs.

LOL, I think breeding for trialling exists in some form pretty much all over the world. I often hear/read people talk about "trial bred" Border Collies. I think it is inevitable, certainly in Aust. where the trialling is not quite representative of the real world.

Right now, in Australia my breed exists in 3 different forms and as time goes by the gap between them will widen. I think this is very unfortunate as IMO iwas perfect as it was

Wow, i didnt know there was a third. I know of the show line and working line. Which is the other??

I would say the working line is split in two. The working style of Aust. Working BC's is quite different to working lines Overseas. They do different things, are trained differently and have been bred differently.

JMO

Edited November 21, 2006 by Vickie

[kylieandpossum]

LOL, there is my inexperienced philosophy for the day. Pick on me if you like

;) Excellent !! I was feeling nervous about asking any more questions.

I just think it is interesting to learn how others perceive sheep dog training and what they do. You can always learn something from everyone.

These questions are asked in a completely friendly non judgemental way -

I don't think some methods of training for trials necessarily bring out the best in a dog, nor do they make them suitable for real work.

sorry didnt mean to make anyone nervous! really, they are good questions, i just thought maybe we were going down the 'right' and 'wrong' path of herding technique discussion and i think we all agree there isnt one or the other.

its really interesting to me, this balance between instinct and training...my dad was a bad sheep farmer in that he expected his dogs to jsut know what to do and would get the shits if they didnt - for some reason if a pups mum knew 'get behind' then the pup should know it too. was very frustrating to watch. of course he was also blessed with dogs that just knew it, from the get go, and then of course all other dogs were compared to that one and found lacking.

i started doing herding schools because i have a herding dog who obviosuly had a lot of natural raw talent but i found myself not able to harness it - having had kelpies on the farm i found this koolie to be a lot harder and stronger in the mind and much more determined to do her own thing, to avoid referencing me. this was partially my problem in that she was now a city dog and i treated her like a princess - ooops i mean a pet (well shes cute, what am i sposed to do ). as soon as we put heron sheep we could see the natural drive and that strength of mind and we had to DO something about that or she wasnt going to work for anyone except herself. so that was a process of off sheep relationship building between me and her where i continually inserted myself into her world and took away a lot of her capacity to make her own decisions. not to stop thinking but to not just rule her own roost.

that paid off very quickly and she started to work very nicely for me in a small ring. we went backwards and forwards for a while between a small ring and bigger one, building that relationship, me figuring out how she worked and what got her attention without shutting her down, but without letting her set the rules. now it looks like i have a dog i will be able to trial with, but im not really in it to win, more to see where it takes us and because its a good way of getting her working while we dont live on a farm, and its just a fun thing to do with my dog.

now we have confidence between us im happier to let her do her own thing on the sheep because i trust her now to know what shes doing and ive learnt that constantly interfering makes her work higher rather than slower, and i want the slower.

she has nice moves, good distance, great balance. but it does frustrate me at times that she wants to work revved up and i have to stay on top of that without hassling her constantly. that is still an area that needs a lot of work.

do you guys have your dogs in the city, as pets as well? what do you do, how do you treat your dogs at home, to help with that relationship aspect. for me that relationship is everything. if she listens to me off sheep , then she listens to me on sheep. how do you handle that?

[kylieandpossum]

LOL, there is my inexperienced philosophy for the day. Pick on me if you like

;) Excellent !! I was feeling nervous about asking any more questions.

I just think it is interesting to learn how others perceive sheep dog training and what they do. You can always learn something from everyone.

These questions are asked in a completely friendly non judgemental way -

I don't think some methods of training for trials necessarily bring out the best in a dog, nor do they make them suitable for real work.

sorry didnt mean to make anyone nervous! really, they are good questions, i just thought maybe we were going down the 'right' and 'wrong' path of herding technique discussion and i think we all agree there isnt one or the other.

its really interesting to me, this balance between instinct and training...my dad was a bad sheep farmer in that he expected his dogs to jsut know what to do and would get the shits if they didnt - for some reason if a pups mum knew 'get behind' then the pup should know it too. was very frustrating to watch. of course he was also blessed with dogs that just knew it, from the get go, and then of course all other dogs were compared to that one and found lacking.

i started doing herding schools because i have a herding dog who obviosuly had a lot of natural raw talent but i found myself not able to harness it - having had kelpies on the farm i found this koolie to be a lot harder and stronger in the mind and much more determined to do her own thing, to avoid referencing me. this was partially my problem in that she was now a city dog and i treated her like a princess - ooops i mean a pet (well shes cute, what am i sposed to do ). as soon as we put heron sheep we could see the natural drive and that strength of mind and we had to DO something about that or she wasnt going to work for anyone except herself. so that was a process of off sheep relationship building between me and her where i continually inserted myself into her world and took away a lot of her capacity to make her own decisions. not to stop thinking but to not just rule her own roost.

that paid off very quickly and she started to work very nicely for me in a small ring. we went backwards and forwards for a while between a small ring and bigger one, building that relationship, me figuring out how she worked and what got her attention without shutting her down, but without letting her set the rules. now it looks like i have a dog i will be able to trial with, but im not really in it to win, more to see where it takes us and because its a good way of getting her working while we dont live on a farm, and its just a fun thing to do with my dog.

now we have confidence between us im happier to let her do her own thing on the sheep because i trust her now to know what shes doing and ive learnt that constantly interfering makes her work higher rather than slower, and i want the slower.

she has nice moves, good distance, great balance. but it does frustrate me at times that she wants to work revved up and i have to stay on top of that without hassling her constantly. that is still an area that needs a lot of work.

do you guys have your dogs in the city, as pets as well? what do you do, how do you treat your dogs at home, to help with that relationship aspect. for me that relationship is everything. if she listens to me off sheep , then she listens to me on sheep. how do you handle that?

[Kavik]

I'm not sure what style of sheepwork I want to end up in. The new trialling system being set up looks interesting, and Kaos's breeder is involved in that, so I will look into that. A friend of mine with Kelpies does yard trials with them, and that was fascinating too. A lot also depends on how often I am able to get to sheep, and remembering that I am a beginner at this too. I would like to try to do it as properly as I can, even if it means less time on sheep.