Sheepwork Commands

[Kavik]

After yesterday's introduction to sheepwork I realised there is a lot to learn!

So my first question is what commands are used for sheepwork and can I teach some of them without sheep? Any tips on how to teach them?

Recall - Kaos's recall is normally very good but he didn't recall well off the sheep. Is it best to use the same recall command for everything or have a different one for sheepwork?

Stop - OK we have yet to teach this one Everyone there recommended a stand position.

[wheres my rock]

i have two excellent herding books here im happy to sell on for ten dollars each if you want them

[ShesaLikeableBiBear]

Kavik

This is an excellent site: A System for Training Working Dogs 2. Teaching the Commands

http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/beef/2631.html

[persephone]

there are the recognised commands..or, you can use your own! Unless you are doing it in competition or whatever..make up your own

Our dogs use some like this.."go out" or :go Back" to go out after sheep,

"watch'em" literal translation...don't let the sheep make a move...pay attention!

"fetch 'em in"..bring the sheep to me

"behind,or "come behind" come back to me..and to heel.

"PUSH"...used in yards mainly...be forceful..bark & push sheep thru gate or up race-way

There are lots more..,including the basic "stop" and "drop"and just about all of them have a whistle or hand signal equivalent...much easier, and carries better in a noisy sheepyard.

I don't do any of it now..but ahve trained a couple of dogs for our own use.

Mind you....trial work is something else! the work involved there is terrific!

Ours are very good workers...they do a lot of it! They go off (with the bosss) to work on different properties..and work sometimes with mobs of a thousand or more sheep at one time..in paddocks of 10 and 20 thousand acres!

Some of them are also very good at working the feral goat mobs..yarded and sold.

Dogs for this work have to be very strong..and quick,and not take NO for an answer..goats have much more thinking power than sheep..and very hard heads with sharp horns!

Enjoy it!!

:D

[wolfie]

Kavik,

there are some strong arguments for and against teaching a dog sheep commands away from sheep or dry teaching as it can be known.

While the stop and recall are essentials and should be pretty solid before putting your dog on sheep, there are many positive style methods for teaching these commands.

The directional commands can be hard to teach without sheep. It can be very demotivating for some dogs being jerked around by a lead in a certain direction, then in another. I prefer to train it on sheep, where there is relevance for the dog. Just support the dog around the sheep in one direction, using the command. Here is also a great place to use 'stop', then continue in the same direction.

So much goes out the window once the dogs is with the sheep, and like any dog training, just because it knows a command in the backyard or park, doesn't mean it can generalise the behaviour to another setting, particularly one with huge distractions. Very often many commands will have to be retaught.

[persephone]

Yep..I agree, wolfie..especially if a dog's working instinct kicks in..it will want to do things the way it is being "told" to..NOT the accepted human way

Our pups are basically taught to come and to sit...then the rest is done as an 'apprenticeship" with the sheepwork.

Different, I know, with it done as an entertainment... excuse my ramblings

[Kavik]

Thanks for your responses!

OK for recall and stop:

Recall I have been doing the same as I would need for anything else. Although not much of the sit on recall, more on quick response to come to me with food reward. Do I need to do anything more for sheepwork, or just work on distractions (the sheep were very distracting )

Stop - not sure the best way to teach this one for sheepwork. Kaos has a basic stand which I use for examining feet and nails etc where I use food. Probably will need something more?

[Working_Setters]

Stop - not sure the best way to teach this one for sheepwork. Kaos has a basic stand which I use for examining feet and nails etc where I use food. Probably will need something more?

Kavik, I don't know anything about sheepwork, but when teaching my gundogs stop to whistle, I like to have the dogs sit. IMO sitting is a positive action, the dog has to do something, ie stop running and sit, as opposed to standing, which is basically asking the dog to do nothing, but just stop whatever else it was doing. ie just stop running/walking etc.

Re-reading the above, that has to be one of the most confusing paragraphs I've ever written

Basically I prefer to teach, whistle = stop running and sit (do something) rather than whistle = stop running, but do nothing other than remain standing.

Teach the same way you teach every thing else, start in no distraction environment and work up high distractions. Keep sessions short, always end on a positive, plenty of praise for right behaviour and don't punish until you're CERTAIN the dog knew what was required, but choose to not to do it.

[persephone]

ours come to a standing stop... so they can be instantly on the move if a sheep "breaks" ranks..or whatever

[jesomil]

You can use whatever commands you like but the ones i use are:

Round - go clockwise around sheep

Over - go anticlockwise

Stop - stop in a stand position

Sit - sit and dont move

Get in - to push or bite

Speak - to bark

Get up - to jump on the sheeps back

Here - come to me

Get out - back off from the sheep

I use these for a yard dog and these are all the commands we need.

I like stop to mean stand as they are only stopping for a sec and they are better able to jump into action quickly. Sit means sit and dont move until asked. I find this very handy in some situations.

I have taught sit and here without sheep and the others are best taught in a round yard with a rake.

Teaching stop is easiest with a rake when the pup is distracted by the sheep. When you say stop, you block them from being able to get to the sheep. You keep blocking with the rake until they stop. When they stop, you lavish praise.

With round and over, you say the command and then guide them around the sheep in the desired direction. Sheepdogs are really quick learners and catch on to commands very quickly.

I dont use food rewards with any sheep work. The sheep are such a high motivation, most dogs will ignore food in this situation. They have to learn to come to you because you called them.

I use the same recall command wherever we are. If you were doing obedience and wanted a nice straight sit infront of you, i would use a different command.

My dog learnt all his commands as a pup with ducks in a round yard in our backyard. We love the ducks as we dont have the space for sheep. Everything he has learnt from the ducks has transferred straight over to the sheep as he only sees sheep on the weekend and now he is a competing yard dog!!

Edited November 19, 2006 by jesomil

[Guest Clover]

I use/ used....

Here - go left round the sheep

Behind - go right around sheep (Maybe it is the other way around lol)

Stop - stop in standing position - easier/ quicker to be able to move if needed

That'll do = come/ that's enough kiddo

Speak - self explanatory

I cannot wait to get started again.

[dasha]

For my dogs I use

Left - Clockwise

Right - Anticlockwise

Stop - In a drop as I feel it is more stable and they don't go until I say.

Wait there- is a stop but standing ready to break to cover or just to wait for a sec. If they break a wait command to cover if needed that is fine but a Stop is a Stop until I release. I need to be able to know my dog is where I stopped it so I can turn to latch a gate or talk to someone and teh dog won't run off and work unasked.

Back off- When they are a bit close

Push - for when in the race and they need to get closer or be a bit more forceful

Speak - to bark

Lay down - For when we are waiting to go in the ring or just to be at ease

Get up - to back the sheep

Walk up - to walk 1 step at a time on the sheep so they are not startled but increasing pressure

Steady - to slow then down incase they start to panic and run the sheep

Behind - to come behind me whether it is while working the sheep ( to help prevent crossing) or we are walking and she gets in front

That'll do - means finished working and to be at ease with the sheep and even if the sheep are running, they are to stop and wait for a command

Also have a shish noise to make her go faster and to be a bit keener to rev her up on the sheep

Most of the commands I taught her without sheep. If they know the commands away fom the sheep they grasp it faster with the sheep there as a distraction. I also give directions and practice them like lunging a horse and also for things like sending them ofter the ball or the other dogs. Making thembehind me to get in them, sending thema direction to get to their beds or the ball. Walk up on the ball or the other dogs if they are trying to work the other dogs or cats or horses or birds.

I basically look for an oppottunity to test their listening or recognition of the commands in all areas so I know they understand what I am telling them to do.

[MrsD]

It was along time ago & I dunno if it counts or not but I used to use

Go back - cast around the sheep, I used to use my arm as direction, so same command for casting either side.

Push 'em up - push the sheep up in the yards.

Up - back the sheep

Come behind - come back to heel

Speak - bark

Steady - slow down & use less pressure

All mine were taught on sheep, but that's mainly because that's what the dogs were used for most days being on a sheep property. We used to start our puppies at about 3 months old in the yards.

[kylieandpossum]

After yesterday's introduction to sheepwork I realised there is a lot to learn!

So my first question is what commands are used for sheepwork and can I teach some of them without sheep? Any tips on how to teach them?

Recall - Kaos's recall is normally very good but he didn't recall well off the sheep. Is it best to use the same recall command for everything or have a different one for sheepwork?

Stop - OK we have yet to teach this one Everyone there recommended a stand position.

just my two cents worth - i wouldnt be training any sheep-specific 'commands' off sheep. and i wouldnt be putting WORDS to any of your sheep work "commands" until the dog knows the actual behaviour, whcih is pretty much the same principle as any dog training cos dogs dont speak english so the word means nothing to them until its clear what the required behaviour is.

i do use a drop when i want everything to stop completely because a drop is a drop, no matter where. but it stops all the working and she can explode off it, so i need to only use it when everything really has stopped otherwise she will not trust me that that is the correct command (keeping in mind that my dog actually knows better how to work sheep than i do!).

i agree re the 'half stop' which i use 'stay there' for - i use it even if we're moving, just a slow and steady stay there, stay there if she is in the right spot and the sheep are moving well or we are waiting to move on again. it keeps her just outside the bubble. (edited for clarification - i taught her this by letting her come around to before where i wanted her to pull up, (note, BEFORE, because i will be slow and she will take extra steps) hold my arm out to block her up so that she is sitting behind my shoulder just in the corner of my eye - and say stay there possum good girl, stay there, in a calm but happy voice, a negative motion with a positive sound, so she doesnt fight against it - if that makes sense!! this is when we are both working slightly behind or to the side of the sheep and moving them in front of us. when i want the sheep bought it into me with her behind them then i still use stay there by holding my arms up in the air, again just as the sheep start to settle down and she is still far enough back. if we are going to move again i use stay there. if we're finished i say drop and move out from the sheep and call her off...)

the recall is essential - if you want kaos to come to you off the sheep and the games over, then the same command you use to get that behaviour anywhere else should do the trick. this means 100% name recognition, and i use come like i do elsewhere. that you can train anywhere and train it in the face of other distractions when you have 100% success in a confined environment. if you are asking your dog to come in closer and work near you then i use her name in a nice way and lots of little sucking noises! but thats for a very specific type of job i need her to do when i want miniscule pressure on the sheep so it doesnt mean come away from the sheep it means come here and work with me....

and then to top it all off, it will be different everytime in different places with different sheep!

have fun :D

Edited November 19, 2006 by kylieandpossum

[Vickie]

I'm no expert to give advice, but would like to share a mistake I have made, LOL.

I think I've taught Trim that "steady" means continue to go fast, LOL.

Last time I worked her, she was not backing off when she should have & I was saying "steady". It had no effect & she kept coming too fast.

So my tip is, when your dog is doing the right thing...put a command on it. i.e. "steady". Otherwise you will name the behaviour you don't want (like I have done).

I don't use "come" as I would at home and I also didn't use "lie down" around the house until I taught it on sheep.

It is so easy as a beginner in herding to put a command on a behaviours you don't want. I think Stop is a classic example. The amount of people you see having to give this command 10 times for it to happen is amazing. I was told to teach stop, only on sheep & to use the instinct of the dog to teach it. All in all this has worked pretty well for us.

I would also like to get people's opinions on this one:

I taught "that'll do" initially as leaved the sheep & we will go to another area & recast. It made her enthusiastic to recall & I have no trouble calling her off sheep now. She will call off instantly usually but then come back to me & reposition to cast again. I either recast or walk off & she comes with me. Is this bad? Should "that'll do" mean we are finished completely? I don't really have a problem with my method...it works, but people have said it is wrong to teach this way? Anyone have an opinion on this? Sorry to sidetrack Kavik, but it is relevant to the thread.

[kylieandpossum]

I'm no expert to give advice, but would like to share a mistake I have made, LOL.

I think I've taught Trim that "steady" means continue to go fast, LOL.

Last time I worked her, she was not backing off when she should have & I was saying "steady". It had no effect & she kept coming too fast.

So my tip is, when your dog is doing the right thing...put a command on it. i.e. "steady". Otherwise you will name the behaviour you don't want (like I have done).

I don't use "come" as I would at home and I also didn't use "lie down" around the house until I taught it on sheep.

It is so easy as a beginner in herding to put a command on a behaviours you don't want. I think Stop is a classic example. The amount of people you see having to give this command 10 times for it to happen is amazing. I was told to teach stop, only on sheep & to use the instinct of the dog to teach it. All in all this has worked pretty well for us.

I would also like to get people's opinions on this one:

I taught "that'll do" initially as leaved the sheep & we will go to another area & recast. It made her enthusiastic to recall & I have no trouble calling her off sheep now. She will call off instantly usually but then come back to me & reposition to cast again. I either recast or walk off & she comes with me. Is this bad? Should "that'll do" mean we are finished completely? I don't really have a problem with my method...it works, but people have said it is wrong to teach this way? Anyone have an opinion on this? Sorry to sidetrack Kavik, but it is relevant to the thread.

thats so true what you say vickie, i very nearly did the same thing because possum WASNT steady, she was going a million miles an hour and whoa, steady or whatever meant nothing, it was just encouragement to keep going fast. i dropped it real quick, when shes working too fast i make no sound at all, anything i say makes it worse, so i just physically block her up and keep her short and then when shes not getting anywhere she slows up and then i can use the stay there, cos thats the behaviour i want. i cant rewire her brain, she will always be inclined to work too hard and too fast so i need to make sure we work soft and short from the beginning. soft starts, or casts have been vital for that, and when they are too fast she gets blocked off from the sheep.

as for the recall, what i was trying to say to kavik is that if you have a pre-existing command that means leave it, we're out of here, then you should still be able to use that on sheep. its just that sheep are a much much higher distraction than most of us have had to work with before. which is why the name is so important. when i say Possum i want her to "look at me" then i tell her what we're doing now. Possum come means we're going away from the sheep now and its what i used from the beginning because she had a good recall outside and i had some faith that it would work. it took a while of again, physically getting in between her and sheep before she really did come away but now she comes first time. a caveat to that is when she has gotten away from me out in the paddock and is on the run. the only thing that works there is a very strong Possum that she knows means come here RIGHT now. most of the time the fact that i have to use that is my fault, something i have not done right before then that gave her the opportunity to get away from me, so its really about setting things up so you can do exactly as you say, attach a command to a good behaviour opportunistically and then reinforce it.

but like you say vickie, im no expert either. i think its really important to remember there is no one formula to herding, unlike some other types of training. so much of it is contextual and conditional on the nature of the sheep on the day and esp on the nature of the dog. you have to work the dog you have, not the dog you wish you had, or that someone else thinks you should have. all working dogs work differently and so a lot of my herding has been learning how possum works and how to shape that while still working sheep, rather than being on my dogs back all the time. i am trying to learn to work sheep as much as training my dog, after all.

in answer to your specific question vickie, ive seen lots of people use 'that'll do' and it works great but it does seem to mean 'we're finished', i havent seen it used to reposition the dog...i suspect if you use it for both circumstances, at some point the dog may become hesitant to leave the sheep because it isnt a definitive 'we're done working here now' if you know what i mean. but then again, they may not....

[Kavik]

Vickie

I like the way you taught 'that'll do'. If you can teach them that stopping will get the game going again you will have a keen and enthusiastic recall/stop/let go. Same concept as using two balls, letting go in drive work, also in bite work.

I am still working out what everything means and what I am seeing with my dog and the sheep and what on earth I am supposed to be doing On Saturday I was mainly watching and trying to take everything in, what Kaos was doing, what the sheep were doing, what Jim was doing.

[kylieandpossum]

Vickie

I like the way you taught 'that'll do'. If you can teach them that stopping will get the game going again you will have a keen and enthusiastic recall/stop/let go. Same concept as using two balls, letting go in drive work, also in bite work.

I am still working out what everything means and what I am seeing with my dog and the sheep and what on earth I am supposed to be doing On Saturday I was mainly watching and trying to take everything in, what Kaos was doing, what the sheep were doing, what Jim was doing.

totally sympathise, its so overwhelming at first then one day it starts to click together. i would just add that if you are going to teach a stop that means the game begins again that has to be different to a stop that means we're done now. if you always teach a stop that actually means 'stop for a little while' if you use that same command as a 'leave it alone, we're done' you may run into trouble getting the dog to actually leave because it will be waiting to start again. if you ask for a recall totally off the sheep but the dog thinks you havent done working then it will want to hang behind. i wonder if maybe with a dog that doesnt want to come away entirely, a stop or that'll do is a good way to settle the dog, then when you walk off use whatever your normal recall is to differentiate working from finishing? i know with poss i have to pick my moment to ask for the 'come away' and it means settling her down first... interesting....

[jesomil]

and i wouldnt be putting WORDS to any of your sheep work "commands" until the dog knows the actual behaviour

I dont understand how you would achieve this. How do you teach left and right with this method?

i would just add that if you are going to teach a stop that means the game begins again that has to be different to a stop that means we're done now. if you always teach a stop that actually means 'stop for a little while' if you use that same command as a 'leave it alone, we're done' you may run into trouble getting the dog to actually leave because it will be waiting to start again. if you ask for a recall totally off the sheep but the dog thinks you havent done working then it will want to hang behind.

Maybe i have just misread this as i dont understand. How about just using the one command. The dog comes to you regardless of whether or not it is going to work the sheep again. I would think you had recall problems if the dog didnt come regardless.

I am just a touch confused about the commands being used here. Sorry, i dont mean to be a pain here.

[kylieandpossum]

and i wouldnt be putting WORDS to any of your sheep work "commands" until the dog knows the actual behaviour

I dont understand how you would achieve this. How do you teach left and right with this method?

i would just add that if you are going to teach a stop that means the game begins again that has to be different to a stop that means we're done now. if you always teach a stop that actually means 'stop for a little while' if you use that same command as a 'leave it alone, we're done' you may run into trouble getting the dog to actually leave because it will be waiting to start again. if you ask for a recall totally off the sheep but the dog thinks you havent done working then it will want to hang behind.

Maybe i have just misread this as i dont understand. How about just using the one command. The dog comes to you regardless of whether or not it is going to work the sheep again. I would think you had recall problems if the dog didnt come regardless.

I am just a touch confused about the commands being used here. Sorry, i dont mean to be a pain here.

sorry i got kind of rambly there and didnt explain myself clearly. and its hard to explain this kind of stuff without firstly, over intellectualising something as nebulous as herding and secondly, in words rather than actions. but i'll try.

by the command thing its the same principle as in other types of dog training. shape the behaviour you want BEFORE you put a meaningless word to it. we dont ask a dog to sit without showing it what to do cos we know it doesnt speak english. in herding i use the same thing as in teaching other movements, basically set it up so the dog HAS to go that way then reward it in some way for doing that. so for 'sides' (as in left and right) i just physically stop the dog from going the way i dont want it to go and when it goes the right way say yes good girl and then eventually put the word to it (come by, away, round, here, back whatever you chose). having said that i dont have words on my sides because she does them anyway and i just turn my shoulder AWAY from the direction i want her to go in so she rocks back and changes direction. that one i cant explain in words, i just taught her from the get go to not work in front of me unless there are sheep there. shes a koolie so she is very sensitive to pressure coming off the front of me. when there are sheep in between us ("first pattern") and shes bringing them into the front of me she naturally works in short arcs behind the sheep - when she wants to go too far around i put my arm out to block her and tell her good girl for changing direction.

with the recall thing, ive just been taught to not use the same command for two different things and vickie was saying she uses 'that'll do" to reset her dog to keep working but also to stop working completely and leave the area. obviously if that works thats awesome, id hazard a guess that there is something different in vickies voice when she says that'll do that refers to "that'll do for that move" vs "that'll do we're going home now". i was just wondering that if you taught a dog a 'stop' command that actually meant 'stop for a minute while we move over here" and you rewarded the dog with sheep for that, the dog should technically think (of course i have no idea what dogs think ) whenever i hear that word we are going to work sheep again. if you then use that same word for "we're leaving now" the dog might think "no we're not, we still have work to do". so to me thats not really a recall right? so i use "stay there" for "keep doing what youre doing" (whether its moving or not moving), drop when i want everything to STOP completely (regardless of what happens after that. if im going to use that and then keep working i need to give a good break in between so the dog doesnt think DROP actually means keep working - again like what vickie said with the 'steady') - and then when we're all done its jsut Possum Come and walk away and she follows.

does that make sense?