Obedience Trialling Question

[Alpha]

Poodlefan:

The question I pose for you is how many of those students would have bothered to go on to "real trialling level" had they not been encouraged to have a go. A lot of these get motivated by their experience and go on to bigger things.

The trialling dog is a showcase of the handlers talents and if sound, will not be worried by outside influences. In most cases, your dog will show you up as the problem! To be worried by this to me is worrying about my own ability.

The problem is, novice is made up of probably 70% of dogs that are not ready as well. Where does the debate end?

Just remember that we compete in a "sport". People get involved in sport for a number of reasons, not just to win. (me not one of those :D )

Many are motivated by stewarding/helping out in their club trial and being encouraged by their instructors. Some handlers are promoted too quickly throught the ranks and rush into trialling IMO. BUt it is a sport in which everyone can participate, just because one person does not believe that some elses dog is not ready for the ring does not mean they should not be encouraged. Years ago, a foot perfect gentleman by the name of Matt Mc Kerchener ( Vic people may know of him) approached me when he heard I was going to withdraw my dog from the ring as I was placed between two Rotties ( my boy had issue with large dark coloured dogs :D )I did not want to risk mucking up the other dogs but also have my dog get a bad rep after all the work I and my instructors had put into him. Mr Mc Kerchner ( he will always be Mr to me as he was a true gentleman of the sport) told me that if I lacked faith in my ability to command my dog then I lacked faith in his trust in me not to place him in a position he felt unsafe and I was doing myself and my dog a disservice.

I did not withdraw

I did the stays

My boy did the stays

My true "win" was not the second placing, but the sage nodding from across the ring of this knowledgable man who taught me more about having a go than I would even have learnt in the next decade of training.

If we were all to "withdraw" on NQ's etc for the stays, what would the solution be where only one qualifying handler remained? It is a group stay for a reason.

Proofing in the lower classes is what's needed, the more innovative the better, I have had hats thrown across in front of my dogs, plastic bags are for windy days, some of us have used guinea pigs as a distraction ( need a very steady dog for that ) balls, footies, kids, food, leaves, put them on a stay in a dusty spot, drop them in the mud, puddle, it's endless...opportunites arise all the time, sirens I always place my dog on a stay until it passes, skateboarders, minibikes, the weirder the better.

[poodlefan]

Alpha:

If we were all to "withdraw" on NQ's etc for the stays, what would the solution be where only one qualifying handler remained? It is a group stay for a reason.

Yes, and I make my dogs available for stays if I am not qualifying and they need numbers. I trust my dogs and I also don't want to abuse their trust in me. If I have concerns about another dog interfering with my dog, I chose not to place them in a position where they may be badly frightened or harmed.

Interference would be of less concern to me if I had a larger dog but a small dog IS vulnerable to harm. My dogs have held their stays in the face of birds in front of them and dogs noses under them. We've had balls thrown, prams pushed and dogs weave in and out and my dogs trust me that no harm will come to them from any of this. I have no intention of "proofing" my dog not to break when jumped on or interfered with because for that to happen means that I have betrayed their trust in me to protect them. I'm not talking about dogs getting up and wandering around but dogs who actually make a beeline for others.

My dogs safety relies on the control every handler in the obedience ring has over their dogs in the stays. I think it only fair that handlers have at least a reasonable expectation of control when entering obedience trialling or that they are reasonably confident their dog won't interfere with others. I can't tell you how heart breaking it is to have months of proofing undone by one handler "having a go" to see if their dog will do something its never successfully done in training. It's happened both to me and to others.

Dressage runs "unofficial" tests for people who simply want to try - perhaps that's what obedience could do too.

[dogdude]

I can certainly understand everyones various points, but what is the answer? Ideally large dog - small dog group stays? Who knows?

Proofing is another hot topic where I am concerned. It seems to me that some obedience clubs have forgotten what it means! I commonly here comments like "setting your dog up to fail" etc etc. IMO its setting your dog up to win! How many triallers actually pounce on rainy days to work their dog? I have to agree with Alfa, and the rest of you that beleive the problem lies within the clubs, for a variety of reasons!

[dogdayz]

Problem i see at club level, is by the time you reach the trial level classess with distance stays the number of class members has dropped off dramatically so often the dogs are proofed with a small number and its the same dogs every week. Like i said earlier with my girl the other week finding herself alongside a tiny (chi x australian terrier at a guess) in a woolly jumper was something she had never come across since a puppy. Partly becuase the dogs in her social group tend to be medium/large and partly becuase very few of the tiny dogs seem to go through the class levels, even now i am struggling to find one i can train her alongside.

[J...]

Even different breeds when you're in small clubs... we had a dal rock up the other day, created a huge amount of interest from my dog who's probably not seen one since she was also a young pup. Something I wouldn't have though of.

[mmoo]

in all problems with any exercises you really have to go back to basics. the group exercises are the hardest. as you have entered at southern you do not have much time to do anything. i would practice my stays at the trial as close as i could get to the ring as i could without actually training out side the ring as this very much frowned apon. bearing in mind that he is only just begining his obedience career do not any thing that is going make him worry about being left with other dogs.after this trial if you can do stays with really reliable dogs to get confidence back.

[leopuppy04]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Just thought I might share that we did some stays (group) on Wed and we held a 1.15min sit stay and 3min down stay with doors banging, dogs staring at us, wind blowing up a gale (geez I froze!) and things clanging everywhere. We got a well-deserved chicken carcass after the stays to re-inforce good things! LOL! I'm just going to keep nutting away at it and see how we go!

Thanks again

[elsaone]

Just a few questions regarding stays in an obedience competition:

1. I am sure this gets asked a lot - if a dog next to yours was to break a stay and move directly infront of yours and your dog breaks, how would the judges deal with this???? I am talking about literally the dog having a direct interaction or standing VERY close to your own? Would you be able to repeat it or would it be an immediate NQ for you?

2. I have recently had a trial (nb: do not blame dog or handler at all) whereby my dog was very un-nerved in his stays by a barking dog next to us ("please come and save me mum I don't want to be here" probably was being communicated by said dog). In all honesty I do believe this caused my dog to break his stay as his behaviour (scratching repeatedly, yawning and then breaking into stand) was very much out of character as we usually just drop if we don't want to hold our stays..... he also rarely breaks his drops which he did again. Granted, he may have picked up on my stress, but is there anything that could be done about a disturbance caused by another dog in the stays? Particularly if said dog you were likely to encounter again at other trials?

Would love to hear everyones feedback

[elsaone]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Just thought I might share that we did some stays (group) on Wed and we held a 1.15min sit stay and 3min down stay with doors banging, dogs staring at us, wind blowing up a gale (geez I froze!) and things clanging everywhere. We got a well-deserved chicken carcass after the stays to re-inforce good things! LOL! I'm just going to keep nutting away at it and see how we go!

Thanks again

[elsaone]

Unfortunately, in most cases, if your dog breaks a stay its a zero. Its good to do stays in all sorts of areas, where there are distractions and make your dogs stays solid. Sounds like you are doing just that! Good on ya. Keep it up

[leopuppy04]

Thought you might like to know that the exact question I asked (No 1) whereby a dog broke and went over to sniff another happened in my trial on Sat. The dog got to re-sit the stay (but the silly thing dropped about half way through!). I thought that was really nice of the judge and she did mention that it would be awful mean if someone didn't let you re-sit it..... but as always - it is just the judges descretion!

[Sparty]

I had an interesting experience yesterday, we returned from the dwon stays as we reached our dogs sides the one next to me sat up a second before the judge said end of exercise but still passed??

BTW bodie got his first CCD pass woo hooo

[leopuppy04]

I had an interesting experience yesterday, we returned from the dwon stays as we reached our dogs sides the one next to me sat up a second before the judge said end of exercise but still passed??

BTW bodie got his first CCD pass woo hooo

Well done on your first CCD pass!!!!

that is interesting.... IMO that shouldn't have been a pass - the dog broke, tough, but true..... that was the only reason I failed on Sat - he broke when I left, sat down again and held it for the full minute despite the fact that the 3 dogs next to him broke, sniffed each other and were half way toward their owners. I was proud of him for that and the fact that he didn't drop, but really dissapointed that he has found a new way to 'break' stays! At least I have a tonn of ideas on how to combat this now! LOL!

Edited November 20, 2006 by leopuppy04

[InspectorRex]

Keep up the practice Leopuppy, it is hard work but you are making progess.

Yes re-judging is at the Judge's discretion - I always used to re-judge if an unruly dog that had broken forced other dogs to break.

[Sparty]

actually it was his first CD , pass in novice he got his CCD before i had the baby, i was vey proud as i have not been able to work with him and the surgury messed with my body language but he got a pass!! lol if he hadnt licked the judges hand in the fig * he might have got a pass in the morning too hehe

[whatevah]

Sparty, what did you have boy or girl or one of each? How much did it weigh, who does it look like? Moses got his CD title and may be in Vic Dog mag in January. New pup arrives on Monday.

[Sparty]

lol gratz on your new arrival i had a girl, i wont say little as she was 4.31kg!! even two weeks before her due date! and she has red hair scary!! she sleeps most of the day and will sleep from 11pm till 7 now

lol i have already deserted her to do the trial on sunday where bodie got his pass i was away 8 hours and was bursting by the time i got home, LOL kept ringing to see if she was awake yet but she slept thru from when i fed her at 7.45 till 1:30 so i was home for the next feed she is very considerate lets hope that lasts fora while

[Tassie]

Hey Sparty - congrats on Bodie's first Novice pass - and huge congrats on your little girl's arrival - and for having such a gooood baby.

Hi CTD - very exciting about your new baby. Look forward to seeing pics - and hearing how the boys get on with her. Moses was such a friendly fellow at camp - bet he'll love having a puppy. So who's coming to camp with you next year?

[whatevah]

Depends on the camp format. If it is the same as this year, maybe all 3. But if there is going to be more work with the dog, I'll have to decide between Moses and Josh.

Sparty, where did the red hair come from? Does your partner have red hair? LOL Any photos?

[J...]

Congrats on the arrival of your baby girl Sparty! What did you name her?

CTD - red hair's recessive, meaning it can skip a generation thus it often comes from grandparents Congrats on your new arrival as well! Love BC puppies - so cute!

We were working on stays the other day, our class is normally really good which can be a bugger when you want to practise with other dogs breaking, but one decided that stays were not to be the order of the day and incited a riot! Felt sorry for the owners of the 3 who broke and decided to play but was exceptionally proud of my dog who stuck it out!